joyfull anniversary

[Lew]

Originally Posted by sir_drinks_alot

i just don't understand how Thatcher is as hated as she has become after all the lady did win three election's victory in a row why would People vote for a pm thay hate ??

What's with the multiple fonts?

Originally Posted by zendawn

Words can not express the hatred I feel for her and the cons.
The damage has been done, a generation lost.

Nuff said.

Well, not nuff said really. Why do you hate her? What were the 'cons' of her premiership? What damage has been done? Why has a generation been lost? Speaking as a thirtysomething (and therefore one of 'Thatcher's Children') I can say for myself that I don't think I'm lost.

[Marge]

Maggie did a lot to be admired for, the Falklands war for one and she always said the lady wasn't for turning. However I always think of her as Maggie the Milk Snatcher cos she stopped the milk in schools. Maybe a generation will blame her for osteoporosis

Doesn't seem that bad, At least over here a woman can rise to that position and keep her place. Keeping in mind when she was in power as well it is something good and not bad. A lot of the 1st world/rich countries still have never had a women at the top. Lets list them

-USA
-France?
-Germany?
-Italy?
-Spain?
ummmm Well i am not sure about other countries or even if i am right about the above. Help people, especially YOU!

[Bifta]

Originally Posted by towny

Margaret Thatcher seems to stir strong emotions one way or the other. She was either the greatest of all post-War PMs, or the bitch queen of hell bent on wrecking Britain. Sadly, I rarely hear anyone, whether expressing a positive or negative opinion of her, give any of the reasoning behind their point of view.

This could be a very interesting thread, very aptly timed to coincide with the anniversary of her gaining office. But if it is to be interesting, IMO we need to get some real discussion of the issues going, and avoid lapsing into a kind of tired re-working of a mid-80s Ben Elton stand-up routine.

So, Thatcher lovers and Thatcher haters alike, please tell me: why?

1) She's a hypocrit who extolled the virtue of self sufficiency while she married above her station to an alcholic with a roller,

2) Privatisation, how many train crashes will it take?

3) It's all very well taking a tough stance on terrorism but she managed to indirectly swell the ranks of the IRA far more than Bloody Sunday ever did.

4) Where is Britains manufacturing industry?

5) Poll tax, everyone above 16 above a pitiful wage threshold had to pay it, or risk a spell in chokey.

6) The Belgrano? Why?

7) Wasn't she best buddies with Pinochet?

8) We are a mass importer of coal .. yet she saw fit to close down our own mines.

9) Milk for kids! (thanks debsy )

I could go on for hours, but I'd rather not waste any more effort on her, I experienced the meteoric rise in unemployment under her when I left school and I can't say it's an experience I'd want to relive.

The flags will be out over here the day she's takes the elevator down but I can guarantee you it won't be in mourning.

[TheBlueRaja]

Here Here....

Originally Posted by Bifta

1) She's a hypocrit who extolled the virtue of self sufficiency while she married above her station to an alcholic with a roller,

2) Privatisation, how many train crashes will it take?

3) It's all very well taking a tough stance on terrorism but she managed to indirectly swell the ranks of the IRA far more than Bloody Sunday ever did.

4) Where is Britains manufacturing industry?

5) Poll tax, everyone above 16 above a pitiful wage threshold had to pay it, or risk a spell in chokey.

6) The Belgrano? Why?

7) Wasn't she best buddies with Pinochet?

8) We are a mass importer of coal .. yet she saw fit to close down our own mines.

9) Milk for kids! (thanks debsy )

I could go on for hours, but I'd rather not waste any more effort on her, I experienced the meteoric rise in unemployment under her when I left school and I can't say it's an experience I'd want to relive.

The flags will be out over here the day she's takes the elevator down but I can guarantee you it won't be in mourning.

1. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If she actually loved Denis, (and it seems from her reaction at his death that she really, really did) why would it represent an abandonment of her principles to marry him, just because he was rich?

2. An act of the Major Government, not Thatcher. Incredibly stupid, but not something you can attribute to her.

3. Not something I'm qualified to comment on, really - you are in a better position to know than me!

4. Do we need a manufacturing industry? (This is a serious question about globalisation, I'm not being facetious)

5. A good principle, incompetently applied. The idea that everyone pays for services they use is sound. The Poll Tax, however, took far too little account of ability to pay.

6. The invasion - why?

7. Yes. Same as any world leader is best buddies with whichever despotic madman it is expedient to be best buddies with. It stinks, but it's how world affairs works so I don't think it's fair to single her out for it.

8. Our coal imports will drop as our aging power stations are decommissioned. Coal is not an environmentally benign fuel, either to mine or to burn. We are better off without it.

9. How far should the Government of a mature democracy go in enforcing nutrition on the population? (Another serious question - it's all to easy to caricature someone as a demon, especially in policies relating to children. defend the policy of free school milk.)

[Marge]

Have to say though, I admired her for a few things, she wouldn't tow the line like Tony does with George Bush. Maggie would defo tell him like it is and not take any argument, hmmm maybe she wasn't such a bad old bird.

[Bifta]

Originally Posted by towny

1. The two are not necessarily mutually exclusive. If she actually loved Denis, (and it seems from her reaction at his death that she really, really did) why would it represent an abandonment of her principles to marry him, just because he was rich?

I prefer to think of it as just another rung up the ladder for her.

2. An act of the Major Government, not Thatcher. Incredibly stupid, but not something you can attribute to her.

You think once she was out of office she had no influence? Major was just a weak minded caricature of her.

3. Not something I'm qualified to comment on, really - you are in a better position to know than me!

There's a great song about her, (one of many), the chorus goes something like "I'd like to shove her, I'd like to shove her, I'd like to shove her .. off Mt. Errigal!"

4. Do we need a manufacturing industry? (This is a serious question about globalisation, I'm not being facetious)

At the time I'd say the jobs were definately needed.

6. The invasion - why?

If we're going to answer questions with questions, why was it sunk 200 miles outside the exclusion zone?

7. Yes. Same as any world leader is best buddies with whichever despotic madman it is expedient to be best buddies with. It stinks, but it's how world affairs works so I don't think it's fair to single her out for it.

It's difficult not to single someone out when they're the topic of conversation.

8. Our coal imports will drop as our aging power stations are decommissioned. Coal is not an environmentally benign fuel, either to mine or to burn. We are better off without it.

"Will drop" being the operative phrase, a lot of the miners back then would now be approaching retirement age, why not phase out the mines gradually over a longer period of time? (As opposed to announcing 20,000 job losses)

9. How far should the Government of a mature democracy go in enforcing nutrition on the population? (Another serious question - it's all to easy to caricature someone as a demon, especially in policies relating to children. defend the policy of free school milk.)

It's not a case of them choosing not to offer such a facility, it's the fact that they removed it, I could just picture a tory minister stealing sweets from children (and then giving them to someone who already had a bag full )

Originally Posted by towny

Sadly, I rarely hear anyone, whether expressing a positive or negative opinion of her, give any of the reasoning behind their point of view.

Ok, here's some comments and reasons:

MT started off being one of the best things that happened to this country and ended up being one of the worst.

1) The Unions. The fact is that by the end of the '70s the Unions were *much* too powerful, the tail was now wagging the dog and British manufacturing was in a disastrous state. Management had practically lost control of its own business and the Unions were demanding more and more for less and less.

MT unfortunately decided that she wasn't going to just re-dress the balance, she was going to effectively break the Unions' power entirely. Having said that, the Unions didn't particularly help themselves, they *could* have side-stepped her somewhat and moderated their position (which probably would have been better for all in the long run), but instead leaders like Arthur Scargill decided to confront her head on which was a "win or bust" policy and when it comes down to it, the government has the greater power, so the unions lost.

2) Privatisation. Again by the end of the '70s, British industry was in a total mess. Due to a lack of investment, lack of incentive and lack of interest, our manufacturing, transport and production capabilities were in a mess. Our coal and steel was too expensive, our cars and railways were a joke and our water and telephone and power production capabilities were controlled by monolithic organisations that had lost touch with what they were supposed to be doing in the first place.

So things definitely needed a shake-up, but whilst coal, steel, car manufacturing and telephones *can* be run privately, rail, water and power *cannot* and should not be run as profit making companies.

What would have been best was for these to be hived off as independant, non-profit making organisations dedicated to running matters efficiently instead of trying to make money for shareholders.

3) The Poll Tax was another **** up. Local authority spending was another example of the mess the country had got into, but trying to charge the rich and the poor the same amount of tax was guaranteed to get people up in arms.

All of these are examples of things that a) needed to be tackled and b) were tackled in the wrong way.

Unfortunately MT demonstrated that arrogance in power doesn't necessarily mean that people won't vote for you, and, regrettably Tony Blair hasn't even needed three terms in office to realise this and pick up where Thatcher left off.

This could be a very interesting thread, very aptly timed to coincide with the anniversary of her gaining office. But if it is to be interesting, IMO we need to get some real discussion of the issues going, and avoid lapsing into a kind of tired re-working of a mid-80s Ben Elton stand-up routine.

"Mrs Thatch! Mrs Thatch... Oh little bit of politics there...!!

Originally Posted by Bifta

If we're going to answer questions with questions, why was [The Belgrano] sunk 200 miles outside the exclusion zone?

Actually the Belgrano was sunk 40 miles "outside the 200 mile exclusion zone", not "200 miles outside it".

Admittedly the Thatcher government made a mistake by claiming it was heading *towards* the zone, not away from it, but since there was already a task force sailing from the UK on a war footing, whereas the submarine was still operating on the previous "don't fire unless fired upon" instructions, it was reasonable to update the submarine's instructions to be the same as those of the rest of the fleet.

For a reasonable and (AFAICS) impartial report of the sinking, see:

http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache...+sinking&hl=en

(sorry it's a google cache link, but the original doesn't want to work).

This states that "even the Argentine Defense Ministry issued a report in 1994, in which they recognized the sinking as a legitimate act of war."

I never voted for her especially after her efforts as education minister.Bifta is quite right about the milk business.She wasn't forcing a nutrition issue,she was removing it as a choice.Plus the removal of good healthy school dinners has in my opinion done a great deal of harm to the learning of children since.Too many of our children no longer even eat one good healthy meal a day and live of a diet of junk because of the privitisation off school dinners.

Under her the rich got considerably richer and the rest of us could go to hell BUT I think her record as far as unemployment goes is what has forever condemed her in my eyes.Plus under her Government there were 17 education bills-she just couldn't leave it alone.Mind the present government is in very serious danger of matching that record.

However the really galling thing about her is that she never acknowledged the glass ceiling for women and the fact that women are achieving any kind of equality in the workplace is not down to any effort on her behalf.Quite the opposite.I think it's going to be a very long time until we get another woman Prime Minister because of her.I wanted a woman at the top-the pity was that it was her that got there first.


That enough reasons towny?

[punky]

Is the argument against Thatcher about the Belgrano, because she ordered it to be destroyed, or because she lied about it?

Wether she was right to attack it, it wasn't wrong or illegal. The Argies were warned that they might be attacked even outside of the exclusion zone. They declared war on us, and in a war, any instrument of the opposing forces' military is a legitimate target here, there or anywhere in between.

The lying part was obviously a bad move. Especially because apart from the moral standpoint, there wasn't a reason to do it. Still as far as lies go, it wasn't the worst, and she obviously must of did some good, as they voted to keep her in power.

[TigaSefi]

My parents done well under Thatcher. They doing an awfully lot less well under Labour.

[sir_drinks_alot]

Originally Posted by TigaSefi

My parents done well under Thatcher. They doing an awfully lot less well under Labour.

you know i think that's the case for most of us TigaSefi