a 'sign' or pure 'coincidence'

Originally posted by Theodoric
However, although the term Mariolotry is often bandied about, if my memory serves me right, what Catholics are doing is praying for the intercession of Mary or of a saint with Jesus, not quite the same thing as worshipping Mary or a saint.

They would say that though wouldn't they?

Fact is, the Bible is quite explicit on this point. We are to 'come boldly to the throne of grace' ... that is, directly to Jesus ourselves. No intermediary required.

Saints and Mary are important in Roman Catholicism because early missionaries incorporated pagan gods as 'saints' into christianity in order to win converts more easily.

[Theodoric]

Originally posted by towny
They would say that though wouldn't they?

Fact is, the Bible is quite explicit on this point. We are to 'come boldly to the throne of grace' ... that is, directly to Jesus ourselves. No intermediary required.

Saints and Mary are important in Roman Catholicism because early missionaries incorporated pagan gods as 'saints' into christianity in order to win converts more easily.

However, and I'm probably incorrect here, isn't Grace something that you don't deserve but which is freely given to you by God? So how is it possible for you to attain it by your own acts?

Originally posted by Theodoric
However, and I'm probably incorrect here, isn't Grace something that you don't deserve but which is freely given to you by God? So how is it possible for you to attain it by your own acts?

Indeed you do not attain grace by your acts. You can go before the throne of grace because he has given his grace, not in order to prove you've done something to make you worth of it.

Grace as God's gift makes a nonsense of another Catholic habit - that of doing penance after confession in order to secure forgiveness.

[Russ]

Originally posted by Theodoric
However, although the term Mariolotry is often bandied about, if my memory serves me right, what Catholics are doing is praying for the intercession of Mary or of a saint with Jesus, not quite the same thing as worshipping Mary or a saint.

Agreed but read the words to 'Hail Mary', that sounds a lot like a prayer of worship to these years. Jesus also stated (not sure of the verse, I'm sure I'll find it soon) in the Bible that the only way to God is through Him and no-one else.

[Theodoric]

Originally posted by Russ D
Agreed but read the words to 'Hail Mary', that sounds a lot like a prayer of worship to these years. Jesus also stated (not sure of the verse, I'm sure I'll find it soon) in the Bible that the only way to God is through Him and no-one else.

I'm sure you're right. I was just quoting the 'official' version, as it were. What went through the mind of a mediaeval peasant, especially as all the church services were in Latin, I don't really know.

Originally posted by Theodoric
I'm sure you're right. I was just quoting the 'official' version, as it were. What went through the mind of a mediaeval peasant, especially as all the church services were in Latin, I don't really know.

What Rome intended to go through the minds of the peasants was 'hmm, this is all too mysterious for me, I'd better trust the priest and do what he says.' Therein lay the source of their corrupt power. Wycliffe's translation of the Bible into English in the late 14th century got him in serious trouble with the Pope because it allowed the peasants to read the Bible (or, rather, have it read to them) and find out they were being taken for a ride by the clergy.

[El Diablo]

Originally posted by towny
Care to prove that he didn't invent meteorology?

Well... no... but just because he created the principles and set a science, doesn't mean that he has continuous control over it...

Originally posted by El Diablo
Well... no... but just because he created the principles and set a science, doesn't mean that he has continuous control over it...

True. But seeing as this thread is (loosely!) about the God of the Bible, the Bible is clear that God remains active in his creation. I think I quoted a bit earlier about him bringing (or witholding) rain.

Looking at it another way, if God is the absolute authority, and the laws of physics exist only because of his decision, and he has the power to do whatever he wants whenever he wants, then you could say that the laws of physics only remain constant because he continually wills that they should.

If that's the case, even if God doesn't start the day thinking 'right, I'm going to make it rain on Manchester again today,' then the fact that he reaffirms the laws of physics, allowing meteorological processes to do their thing and rain on Manchester (again), means that he is still involved.

We could take it a step further. God continues to uphold the laws of physics. Therefore it's going to rain on Manchester. But God is also omniscient (all-knowing) so he knows it's going to rain on Manchester, and he is also omnipotent (all-powerful) so he is quite capable of intervening to divert the rain if he chooses. After all, he made the rules, he is outside the universe that is governed by the rules, he is not subject to the rules. Whether as a sign to some church congregation or in answer to someone's prayer, or some other reason only he knows, he is capable of making the rain lay off Manchester even if it's pouring down in Stockport. This is what Christians call a miracle (actually it's what anyone calls a sunny day in Manchester).

A miracle could therefore be described as an intervention in the universe by God, in which he temporarily suspends the laws of physics.

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by towny
Wycliffe's translation of the Bible into English

Wycliffe Jean translated the Bible? (Into patois, presumably.) Wow! I didn't know he was even religeous.

Originally posted by Ramrod
Wycliffe Jean translated the Bible? (Into patois, presumably.) Wow! I didn't know he was even religeous.

You sure know how to bring a conversation back down to earth.....

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by towny
You sure know how to bring a conversation back down to earth.....

One of my many talents