student reprimanded for modification of pledge....... - Page 3

Jerrek · 07-04-2004, 19:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tezcatlipoca

Yes, but my understanding is that Supreme Court opinions *are* then therefore the law. So if the SC says that the "Establishment Clause" of the 1st Amendment applies to State governments as well as the Federal government, then that is how it is (unless a later SC ruling changes it), no matter what the actual text of the Constitution says.

It is only an interpretation, one that is law. BUT, I don't agree with that interpretation because if you read the first amendment it clearly states that CONGRESS will not make any law [blah], and if you read the Federalist Papers it elaborates some more.

So tell me, which way do you think did the Founding Fathers intend us to go? This ridiculous path where you can't even pray in school? Or the path I'm advocating?

Russ · 07-04-2004, 19:13

Who are the founding fathers?

Jerrek · 07-04-2004, 19:18

Many well-educated men, including Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, and Thomas Paine.

downquark1 · 07-04-2004, 19:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrek

So tell me, which way do you think did the Founding Fathers intend us to go? This ridiculous path where you can't even pray in school? Or the path I'm advocating?

Irreverent, it was a long time ago and they're dead, guessing at what they meant would be a pointless and controversial exercise. The constitution isn't suppose to be a holy text where you 2nd guess and take things differently.

Jerrek · 07-04-2004, 19:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

Irreverent, it was a long time ago and they're dead, guessing at what they meant would be a pointless and controversial exercise. The constitution isn't suppose to be a holy text where you 2nd guess and take things differently.

That document is responsible more than anything for making the United States the most prosperous nation in the world. It isn't irrelevant. It is the foundation of our nation.

Russ · 07-04-2004, 19:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Many well-educated men, including Benjamin Franklin, George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, John Adams, Alexander Hamilton, Samuel Adams, Patrick Henry, John Hancock, and Thomas Paine.

But what's so significant about them that they were given that name, or is it just a casual term?

Jerrek · 07-04-2004, 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Russ D

But what's so significant about them that they were given that name, or is it just a casual term?

They founded the United States. They drew up the Declaration of Independence, created the Constitution, and brought the 13 States together to give us independence. They also threw your tea into the ocean. :P

Russ · 07-04-2004, 19:29

I thought we founded the United States??

Or perhaps that should be we found the United States

downquark1 · 07-04-2004, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrek

That document is responsible more than anything for making the United States the most prosperous nation in the world. It isn't irrelevant. It is the foundation of our nation.

No I meant, guessing what the founders wrote it for is irreverent. Whether they wrote it to prevent praying to schools etc.

Jerrek · 07-04-2004, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by downquark1

No I meant, guessing what the founders wrote it for is irreverent. Whether they wrote it to prevent praying to schools etc.

Clearly, it isn't, because it is being brought up today in courts. We know what the Constitution says, and we know what the Federalist Papers say, and we know what they meant. Yet the Supreme Court ruled differently. And that is the issue at hand. I fail to see how you can just say "it is irrelevant." It isn't!

downquark1 · 07-04-2004, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Clearly, it isn't, because it is being brought up today in courts. We know what the Constitution says, and we know what the Federalist Papers say, and we know what they meant. Yet the Supreme Court ruled differently. And that is the issue at hand. I fail to see how you can just say "it is irrelevant." It isn't!

But the law is the law, you can't just say, I think it means this because the person who wrote it would have been inclined to do this.

If someone in 10 B.C wrote a law that said, anyone who commits a crime must be fairly punished. They probably would have meant a stoning. We may use the same law but do we interoperate it this way?

cjmillsnun · 09-04-2004, 12:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jerrek

No he did not. He can exercise his right to free speech elsewhere. He was expected to recite the pledge, the full pledge, not his own made-up one. If they gave him the liberty to recite a poem as he see fit, then fine, recite what you like.

He didn't make up the pledge, He actually recited the original. The words "Under God" are a 20th Century addition

Theodoric · 09-04-2004, 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by cjmillsnun

He didn't make up the pledge, He actually recited the original. The words "Under God" are a 20th Century addition

Correct; see here. To quote from the article:

The pledge of allegiance was first written - without the phrase "under God" - in 1892 in Boston, and recited by schoolchildren, a tradition that continues today.

The pledge was endorsed by Congress in 1942, just after the US joined the second world war.

In 1954, at the height of McCarthyism, "under God" was added to distinguish the "inalienable" rights of US democracy from those of communist states, where rights were conferred on citizens.