Deprivatisation of railways

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by towny

We now have a network which is simply not extensive enough to act as a viable alternative for a great many road journeys, and costs a fortune to use. Consider: I live in Hemel Hempstead. I want to visit a potential supplier of services in Leeds. I can either go on the road (M1, almost literally door-to-door in under 2.5 hours) or I can go by rail 3.5 - 4 hours with two changes of train, and considerable cost when starting a journey before 9.30am).

This is exactly the point. There is no viable alternative to the car in this country for long distance journeys. They put up road tax/fuel tax and so on to try and claim it is to try and get us to use public transport but there is no alternative so we have to use the car and have to pay the taxes.

I could go from Yorkshire to London for £140 by train or £40 by car.

Originally Posted by Halcyon

Railways should never have been privatised in the first place.
Look at all the accidents there have been since privatisation !!!

Actually, there are fewer railway deaths per year since privatisation than there were under British Rail (e.g Clapham Junction, 1988, killed 35 people). And despite private contractors like Jarvis getting the blame for accidents like the Potters Bar crash, let's not forget that the engineers who work for the private contractors, especially the older and more senior ones, all worked for British Rail as well. A fact unions like the RMT and ASLEF are happy for you not to notice.

[trentsteel]

Originally Posted by towny

Actually, there are fewer railway deaths per year since privatisation than there were under British Rail (e.g Clapham Junction, 1988, killed 35 people). And despite private contractors like Jarvis getting the blame for accidents like the Potters Bar crash, let's not forget that the engineers who work for the private contractors, especially the older and more senior ones, all worked for British Rail as well. A fact unions like the RMT and ASLEF are happy for you not to notice.

Yes, the common view nowadays is that the privatised railways are unsafe, which is just untrue. Rail is in fact the safest form of travel, media hype is the reason behind these false preconceptions

[cjmillsnun]

Originally Posted by monkeybreath

what is the point... our railways are crap, always have been crap, and as far as i can see always will be!

I can't count the times i have been on late/ cancelled/ early terminating services... i just got used to it now... £45 for a ticket to london... really not worth the paper it is printed on.

Sorry, I first became a regular commuter in 1994, and whilst there were problems (overcrowding, ticket prices), overall the service ran to time and was reliable.

Now we still have the first two problems and can add late running and unreliability.

WHY because pof privatisation!

[cjmillsnun]

Originally Posted by gary_580

no, "Steal it back" is the phrase

NO not true, if it was renationalised, the government would have to pay for each and every TOC.

They got railtrack for virtually nothing as it was bust.

[cjmillsnun]

Originally Posted by towny

Actually, there are fewer railway deaths per year since privatisation than there were under British Rail (e.g Clapham Junction, 1988, killed 35 people). And despite private contractors like Jarvis getting the blame for accidents like the Potters Bar crash, let's not forget that the engineers who work for the private contractors, especially the older and more senior ones, all worked for British Rail as well. A fact unions like the RMT and ASLEF are happy for you not to notice.

Had Hatfield, Southall, Ladbrooke Grove, Greak Heck & Potters Bar happened with MK1 stock like Clapham, then there would have been many more deaths.

The only reason there were not so many deaths with these accidents is that the trains involved were more modern. The Oldest train involved with these accidents was the HSTs in Southall and Ladbrooke Grove which are of 70's Vintage.

The IC225 sets and Networkers are all of 80/90s vintage. All are ex BR.

The Mk1 sets at Clapham were of 1950s vintage, a lot had been learned since then and these sets would have been phased out by now under BR, (and are sill in use by SWT, SouthCentral and Connex SE)

Yes the managers used to work for BR but now commercial considerations come into practice. This inevitably means corners are cut.

When was the last time a Railway accident was caused by a broken rail before Hatfield........ Hither Green in the 1960's.

When was the last time the Severn Tunnel was closed by HMRI for essential maintenance before the closure a couple of years ago.....

It had never happened because BR repaired any track before it became a serious enough problem for HMRI to get involved!

WHY???! Because there was a culture of safety under BR.

BR introduced the ATP system that was fully working on the HST that caused the accident at Southall. It was switched off because the privatised companies couldn't be ar$ed to train their drivers to use it. So they relied on the older AWS which was faulty in that train. This meant that the driver didn't even realy have time to blink. Under BR a second driver would have been in the cab to assist with sighting signals, or (more likely) they would have used the ATP.

IMHO although the railways are safer than any other form of transport, they are more dangerous now than they were under BR.

[SMHarman]

Interesting thread - those that want to look further into this could do well to read

Long and in two parts (I pasted them into word printend them and read it on a train!)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0...183118,00.html

http://politics.guardian.co.uk/publi...183429,00.html

What shocks me is the cost when compared to European rail travel. Just got two tickets Paris to Brussels and back on the High Speed Red Thalys train. £35 each. Costs £14 for a day return to London from Hertford!

[Xaccers]

How about renationalisation of the railway but not the companies who run the trains?
Take National Express as an example.
Privately owned transport for the public, but the roads are maintained by the govermnet (oh wait, aren't our roads falling apart too? sorry, got sidetracked, no pun intended, oh I give up)

[cjmillsnun]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

How about renationalisation of the railway but not the companies who run the trains?
Take National Express as an example.
Privately owned transport for the public, but the roads are maintained by the govermnet (oh wait, aren't our roads falling apart too? sorry, got sidetracked, no pun intended, oh I give up)

In all honesty the railways need to be vertically integrated, IE the people that own the tracks run most of the trains.

This is how it had always been before the Tory privatisation.

This leads to greater safety as there is one reporting stream for problems that might affect safety.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by towny

Actually, there are fewer railway deaths per year since privatisation than there were under British Rail (e.g Clapham Junction, 1988, killed 35 people). And despite private contractors like Jarvis getting the blame for accidents like the Potters Bar crash, let's not forget that the engineers who work for the private contractors, especially the older and more senior ones, all worked for British Rail as well. A fact unions like the RMT and ASLEF are happy for you not to notice.

I would suggest you check back issues of Private Eye (they don't seem to have an online archive, so I can't post links) for what has happened to the railways since Privatisation. There are stories of how the companies have cut maintenance expenditure below what BR considered safe. Which would seem to be borne (spelling?) out by the Jarvis problem.

Anyway, I have to admit, I don't care whether the Government runs the railways or not. I just care they are reliable and safe. Which, TBH, since privatisation, they don't seem to have been.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by towny

Actually, there are fewer railway deaths per year since privatisation than there were under British Rail (e.g Clapham Junction, 1988, killed 35 people). And despite private contractors like Jarvis getting the blame for accidents like the Potters Bar crash, let's not forget that the engineers who work for the private contractors, especially the older and more senior ones, all worked for British Rail as well. A fact unions like the RMT and ASLEF are happy for you not to notice.

Actually, you might find the following links helpful, as they back up your stance.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery...t/10116w17.htm

http://www.igreens.org.uk/uk_rail_accident_deaths.htm

Mind you, while I realised more people die on the road each year, I didn't realise the difference was 1000s of percent..

Edit: Can't type for toffee..

[cjmillsnun]

Originally Posted by scastle

Actually, you might find the following links helpful, as they back up your stance.
http://www.parliament.the-stationery...t/10116w17.htm

http://www.igreens.org.uk/uk_rail_accident_deaths.htm

Mind you, while I realised more people die on the road each you, I didn't realise the difference was 1000s of percent..

Towny is quite right, there are fewer deaths/year than under BR during its last years of ownership as in 1988, BR had had a ad year with MK1 stock accidents.

Had Clapham happened with a Wessex Electric, (based on the MK3) then there would most likely have been fewer deaths, as the train body would have been much stronger.

I'd just like to go to one source to get ALL timetable info and how much it will cost to get from A to B.At present I have to go to several sources.Unless one of you souls know of such a site?

[Julian]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

I'd just like to go to one source to get ALL timetable info and how much it will cost to get from A to B.At present I have to go to several sources.Unless one of you souls know of such a site?

www.thetrainline.co.uk

Originally Posted by Julian

www.thetrainline.co.uk

Thank you.