ID cards for uk citizens over 16 - Page 4

Ramrod · 07-07-2003, 22:05

Russ, I went and read Revelations13. A gripping read. I then read a lot of stuff that I googled (good conspiracy theory type stuf there). If I was even of a mildly religious bent it would scare me sh*tless. I can see where you are coming from about the id card business.
Now, unless the card is required to be on my forehead/ the back of my right hand or has the number of the beast on it, I cannot accept that it is the work of the beast. The bit about not being able to buy or sell or conduct your business is a bit freaky though.....

musey · 07-07-2003, 22:49

Foucault, Cohen and Lyon have all written about social control through the use of surveillance [interesting stuff, there might be some extracts floating on the Web].

We are already 'visible' in society without even having ID cards. Every cash point you use, every camera that sees you and purchases you make mean that your movements can be traced. In terms of social control ID cards are the next logical step.

The law abiding people will take up ID cards because they have nothing to hide. The people who don't break the law but want some privacy will be pressuried into believing they have something to hide and eventually take-up cards. The people who the Goverment are targeting [criminal elements] will just develop new ways of evading capture and surveillance. The Government will tell us we are in a safer society but we won't really be.

Nor · 07-07-2003, 22:59

Quote:

Originally posted by towny
It would be helpful if you displayed some evidence of having tried to understand what the Bible is about before dismissing it out of hand. I want to believe you have an honest and well thought out opinion on the subject 'cos I prefer always to think the best of people as far as possible. However I can't escape the niggling suspicion that you're just being ignorant.

I haven't read all those bits of the bible so I can't argue why ID cards aren't opposed by the bible. But thats not really where I'm coming from. I'm coming from the perspective that to claim immunity from ID cards because of something it says in a book written 2000 years ago is, in my opinion, nonsense. How religion can be involved in this I really do not know, its just ridiculous. In my view decisions should be made on whats best for us, our neighbour and society as a whole after weighing up the pro's and con's. Not by what was written 2000 years ago by people who had no clue what a modern societies problems are.

Quote:

How deeply patronizing. Who made you the arbiter of what's good for this country? People deciding for themselves that they know what's best for everyone else is exactly how this ridiculous ID card plan has come about.

No.. I'm saying we should use our own minds to decide whats best for the us. I'm not proclaiming to be right, I could be wrong. Stewart put forward a good argument against ID cards. I don't care about being right, I care about whats best for me and the country. I don't think its right to use the bible as a reason not to support something that may help our society, but by all means argue that ID cards may be bad for society but do it on the basis of advantages and disadvantages not on the sole reason that someone wrote in a book 2000 years ago that it shouldn't happen.

Bifta · 07-07-2003, 23:09

ID Card? I'd carry one, but I sure as sh*t is brown wouldn't pay 40 quid for something that's forced on me.

Ramrod · 07-07-2003, 23:16

Quote:

Originally posted by Nor

I don't think its right to use the bible as a reason not to support something that may help our society, but by all means argue that ID cards may be bad for society but do it on the basis of advantages and disadvantages not on the sole reason that someone wrote in a book 2000 years ago that it shouldn't happen. [/B]

Go and read up online and in the bible. Honestly, it is some scary sh*t that is being promoted there. I can see why some people are having second thoughts from a religious angle. (and I don't believe

)

danielf · 08-07-2003, 00:34

Quote:

Originally posted by Ramrod
Go and read up online and in the bible. Honestly, it is some scary sh*t that is being promoted there. I can see why some people are having second thoughts from a religious angle. (and I don't believe )

But still, I would imagine religious people have passports. Are they just hesitant to cary another card as this might be 'the big one'?

Ramrod · 08-07-2003, 00:59

Quote:

Originally posted by danielf
But still, I would imagine religious people have passports. Are they just hesitant to cary another card as this might be 'the big one'?

Seems that way. Every generation seems to have had its 'the end of the world is nigh' brigade, we are no different.

**Chris** · 08-07-2003, 01:19

Quote:

Originally posted by Nor
<snip> Not by what was written 2000 years ago by people who had no clue what a modern societies problems are.<snip>

The overwhelming majority of people on Earth follow one religion or another. That's why religious considerations are perfectly valid in any kind of decision or debate you could care to name. Fashionable atheism or agnosticism is very much a product of certain parts of Western Europe and one or two other places, Australia for example. In world terms, you are in a very small minority.

The Bible was completed a little under 2000 years ago but was begun much earlier than that. And it isn't merely an a-b-c instruction manual for life. If it were, I would agree with you that it would be silly to base modern decisions on the perspective of people who had no concept of technology, industrialisation etc etc. However the Bible is about God, our relationship to him and each other, and, yes, patterns for living a 'godly' life. It sets out basic principles which are as valid now as they ever were. You can't, for example, tell me that "Love your neighbour" is no longer good advice simply because it was written down two millennia ago.

To try to keep this on topic, Russ' particular point was with regard to a Biblical book - The Revelation - which claims to be prophesy; i.e. a prediction/warning/promise of things to come in the future. That means it is necessarily of interest to those people living in the times to which it relates. Many Christians believe these are those times.

Personally, I do look for a time when an ID scheme forces Christians to decide who they are loyal to. However I don't think a UK ID card scheme is it. As Ramrod has pointed out, Revelation talks about a mark on the forehead or the back of the hand. I think we're looking at something a little further into the future, tied up with some kind of international authority or even a single world government.

My own objections to a UK ID card scheme are more based on civil liberties concerns, but I've gone on enough for now and other people have already made that point very well.

08-07-2003, 02:35

Quote:

Originally posted by Gogogo
Interesting Graham but not convincing. Having lived & worked in Zimbabwe [snip] the consequences for not carrying ID could be very serious. I suppose that's an argument against ID cards

Yes, it gives those who wish to abuse power the right to do so with impunity.

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but its extreme, there is no law & order in Zimbabwe now.

Which has no logical connection to the subject.

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Anyway fair enough you have your opinion we agree to differ.

If you wish to differ with me, that's fine.

But this is, for me, not just an opinion, nor merely an interesting discussion, this is something I will damn well *fight*. I am entirely willing to stand up and be counted and have already done so.

When the government tried their "stealth consultation" on ID cards I made certain that I spread the word far and wide so people could register their disapproval. When the government tried to ignore or write off the 5000+ responses that were sent via the Privacy International website I wrote to my MP to ensure that they weren't going to get away with this.

This is going to affect *my* rights and yours, and whether you care about them or not, I *do* care and will try my best to do something about it.

spacedhopper · 08-07-2003, 10:43

I'd rather just go for the barcode tattoo on the forearm, one less item in the wallet, it worked for the Nazis...

08-07-2003, 10:49

Although I dont have any objectiosn to carrying an ID card, I do think that this country is already like a police state.

Hopefully the ID card will become reality, and those immigrants that enter illegallly will end up destitute no money, no nice cosy council house and no chance at all of claiming legal aid.

However, theres still nothing to prevent false Iris and fingerprint scans, I mean, fake an ID card and put your own details on, et voila an acceptable ID card.

I fail to see what rights we have now that will be affected by having an ID card, I mean, if we dont have our driving documents on us we have to report to a police station within 7 days.
If we are not on the electoral role it is impossible to obtain credit.
The national insurance card scheme failed.
So we need a replacement, a card that can act as :-
A) a passport
B) proof of ID
C) a credit card
D) a bank card
E) a driving licence

Whats the harm? dont mention human rights, how can this be against our human rights. What about our right to live in safety?

Dave Stones · 08-07-2003, 10:54

Quote:

Originally posted by timewarrior2001
Although I dont have any objectiosn to carrying an ID card, I do think that this country is already like a police state.

Hopefully the ID card will become reality, and those immigrants that enter illegallly will end up destitute no money, no nice cosy council house and no chance at all of claiming legal aid.

However, theres still nothing to prevent false Iris and fingerprint scans, I mean, fake an ID card and put your own details on, et voila an acceptable ID card.

surely when you go along to the police station or whatver with your fake ID though, and they ask to scan your iris and it doesnt match, there would be a problem?

or have i missed something here?

and as for reading revelations, well i would but i don think there is a bible in this house, and im feeling too lazy to google for it

Ramrod · 08-07-2003, 10:59

Quote:

Originally posted by spacedhopper
I'd rather just go for the barcode tattoo on the forearm, one less item in the wallet, it worked for the Nazis...

Dave Stones · 08-07-2003, 11:00

regarding something russ D said earlier about "the mark"... cant find it to quote now

oh well.

totally offtopic is this why people in the middle ages that committed crimes etc had letters braned on their heads, so they could be identified by the public _and_ so they couldnt be "saved"?

just a thought...

08-07-2003, 11:04

Quote:

Originally posted by Dave Stones
surely when you go along to the police station or whatver with your fake ID though, and they ask to scan your iris and it doesnt match, there would be a problem?

or have i missed something here?

and as for reading revelations, well i would but i don think there is a bible in this house, and im feeling too lazy to google for it

Make a fake ID card, put correct Iris and finger prints on it, hey presto no ones an illegal immigrant. It wouldnt be until closer inspection that anythign would show up. And how many hours would that take? the police stations would be overflowing while everyhting was documented so it would not be checked thoroughly