a 'disability' or not ?

[monel]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Yes of course I do! I expect the government to support these children on MINE and your behalf.I expect a fair deal for ALL children from the government.After all this country and the world wil benefit if we educate these children well and allow them to reach the utmost of their potential.Maybe somewhere out there is a genius who will finally conquer cancer,old age,faster than light travel,unlimited power.

They are a very small group kronas much smaller than the group who currently receive millions under the status of Special Needs and to be frank I don't see that there will be much return on those millions.The amount given to support children with Attention Deficit Disorder is never commented on.Why is it right to support these children but not those who need just as specialised education such as genius children.Not every such child has a wealthy parent tucked away.

Incog.

Well,Ive got to say that I would be more than happy to even see a means tested situation to this issue,where everybody gets a slice of the funding cake,but lets face it,while the government cant even correctly allocate funding to the more accepted groupings of special needs,then we dont stand a chance in hell of ever seeing anything like an acceptable solution to this issue........which in the end means that our future,the children lose out,no matter which wage bracket the families come from...........but might I also suggest that the parents of most Attention defecit disorder children would argue that millions is spent on their kids,cos my son who has an aspect of ADHD in his disability gets nothing in extra support,and never has.......

Originally Posted by monel

Well,Ive got to say that I would be more than happy to even see a means tested situation to this issue,where everybody gets a slice of the funding cake,but lets face it,while the government cant even correctly allocate funding to the more accepted groupings of special needs,then we dont stand a chance in hell of ever seeing anything like an acceptable solution to this issue........which in the end means that our future,the children lose out,no matter which wage bracket the families come from...........but might I also suggest that the parents of most parents of Attention defecit disorder children would argue that millions is spent on their kids,cos my son who has an aspect of ADHD in his disability gets nothing in extra support,and never has.......

I'm sorry to hear that and I hope the situation will change.

However I regularly teach one very extreme case who is now no longer recieving any medication because it had begun to affect his appetite.He has a Special Needs assistant for practically every lesson who cannot get him to do more than sit down(no mean achievement).As for writing anything down well she does all that for him.I frankly see little point her being present as he is achieving nothing and learning even less.It is depresseing as probably your son isn't on the same level but could possibly achieve much more with the right assistance.

However a genius child can be just as disruptive as an ADHD child mainly because they are expected to work at the level of the average in the class and even the extension work available is inadequate for their intelligence and they get bored.As the saying goes the devil finds work for idle hands.
Protect me from a bored genius-they have a propensity for really intelligent disruption especially of the kind that doesn't exactly break any school rules.

Incog.

[monel]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

I'm sorry to hear that and I hope the situation will change.

However I regularly teach one very extreme case who is now no longer recieving any medication because it had begun to affect his appetite.He has a Special Needs assistant for practically every lesson who cannot get him to do more than sit down(no mean achievement).As for writing anything down well she does all that for him.I frankly see little point her being present as he is achieving nothing and learning even less.It is depresseing as probably your son isn't on the same level but could possibly achieve much more with the right assistance.

However a genius child can be just as disruptive as an ADHD child mainly because they are expected to work at the level of the average in the class and even the extension work available is inadequate for their intelligence and they get bored.As the saying goes the devil finds work for idle hands.
Protect me from a bored genius-they have a propensity for really intelligent disruption especially of the kind that doesn't exactly break any school rules.

Incog.

Well,from what you describe,I can understand how you feel...but I would have to say that the assistant this pupil has is not actually helping in the way that i would want for my son........In an educational setting,I know that you see many things that must make your hair curl,and it is a damn disgrace that the teaching profession is dumped with so many situations to cope with and so little real support.
As the parent of a special needs child,i would have no problem with this girl getting financial support,but would have a certain concern about addressing her sitaution as a disability,,,,more as a hyper ability but when the country ever supports the teaching profession with the dedicated staff,resorces and funding for kids of ALL abilities/disabilities then we might see a brighter fortune for our children and country.
Thank you,incog for your kind thoughts about my sons situation,it is appreciated.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

But if your son is gifted he does really need it

how?

example

he can walk, talk, breath, think, hes technically a genius ?

on the other hand someone who has a condition where there adult body has a childs mentality is not needy ?

Originally Posted by Ramrod

...Hang on....no one wants to take money away from anyone

so you expect money for the gifted to come out of thin air ?

Originally Posted by Pierre

Children have the right to a state education. If a promisingly talented intelligent child cannot realise their potential in a state school then it is up to the parent to find a way to get his child into a private school that may give a higher standard of eduaction.

If he can't pay for a private school there are many good state schools out there, they may have to move home so the child can attend one.

The child certainly does not have the "right" to go to a private school and the council should certainly not pay for it.

There are scholaships that can be won, sponsorships that can obtained. The parent may have to get another job to fund it.

If the family cannot fund the education or find an alternative way of funding it then that, I am afraid, is a fact of life.

Unfortunately people don't always get what they want, or what they feel is right. In our society the more financially advantaged will always get the better deal.

Please don't dress this up under the "Special needs" banner. The child does not have special needs. She is a bright child that could perhaps do with going to a "better" school.

She is no more special needs than a toe rag scally kid that refuses to be taught.

If she is indeed so intelligent, she will still obtain al her GCSEs, A levels and whatever degree she chooses.

totally, catigorically, unreservedly, agree with you pierre, is it so hard to understand for the rest of you ?

Originally Posted by Flubflow

So the child at the "higher end" should suffer because they have had the misfortune to be blessed with a higher learning capacity? Is that what you are saying?

how are they suffering they are the smart ones ?

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Extra home tuition as a solution is just is not suitable for gifted children. I t can make matters worse when they go to school and are left even more wanting. It is fine if for example a child has been away from school perhaps due to a long illness and needs to catch up.

i did not mention it would permanant make it an extra to school life not taking away there free time but it seems in this case science and maths is the persons gift so to improve it tuition can help.......

Originally Posted by Flubflow

I know it is not very PC to suggest that we should divert money away from children with a clinically recognised disability but when it comes to the crunch we should not be talking in terms of higher and lower ends anyway.

i dont do 'PC' i want equality, furthering an already skilled person in such away is discriminating against disabled people, its just another 'the richer get richer the poorer get poorer situation'

Originally Posted by Flubflow

We have to get out of this "nobody likes a smartarse" mentality and let those who have that certain ability (or disability!) to be able to simply get a fair slice of the cake.

i seem to remember most people in this country dont like success, instead cheer faliure as 'fighters'

Originally Posted by Flubflow

What I see is a fair chunk of that cake being spent on the general devil spawn children who are in need of there own special class but not clinically diagnosed with a diability. If we have a system for those kids then we should be able to do something for the FEW who are exceptionally gifted.

it still means redirecting funding to people who dont urgently need it, remember the father is a 'doctor' thusly he should pay.

[Stuart]

While I think that this doctor is (almost by definition) fairly well off, therefore should not expect the state to fund a private education. He can probably afford it.

While I don't object to the state providing better education for brighter kids, I think that it would cost too much to do it with Private Schools (and may actually leave the state funded Private School pupil open to insults). I think if any extra money is made available, it should be spent improving facilities within state schools.

However the Government (going on past experience) probably wouldn't allocate extra money for this, so it's all a bit of a pipe dream. If they demanded improvements, and didn't allocate extra money, people that really need it would suffer.

[Halcyon]

The Council Should Absolutely Not Pay Up !!!

If they wish to seek other means of education then it is up to the parents to invest in this.
All over the UK, there is sufficient good Teaching for all kids, be it with special learning needs or not.

But getting paid tuition becuase you have some sort of gift or are intelligent is just wrong. Everyone is inteligent in their own way so everyone would deserve paid studies in their own field in this case.
I dont think anyone in the world can be labelled as being highly intelligent over the rest of us, as everyone has some degree of intelligence on different subjects.

Ok I think im ranting on now and Im only half awake so il stop now.

[CaKe]

Originally Posted by kronas

so you expect money for the gifted to come out of thin air ?

Noone knows where the money should come from - just like many other things in this country, education is underfunded & always needs more money. Noone has said that it should be taken from the special needs budget that already exists though!

Originally Posted by kronas

is it so hard to understand for the rest of you ?

Is there really any need to be so patronising? Everyone has a different opinion. Don't be so intolerant, just because your opinion differs from someone elses. We understand, we just don't agree.

Originally Posted by kronas

how are they suffering they are the smart ones ?

State-school education, in some cases, is crap for gifted children. They suffer as they do not receive the level of education they need. Imagine sitting in a classroom now, at the age of 18, and being taught at the level of a 13 year old. At the age of 7, I was reading books at a 12-13 year old level. Sitting in a classroom listening to the teacher reading 7 year old books didn't interest me, and as a result I was packed off to the library to read on my own. Doesn't it matter that I was being singled out & bullied cos I wasn't like everyone else, I'm not suffering, I'm a "smart one". This carries on, through all kind of schools. In secondary school, which I said before for me was a "private" school, things changed. Coincidence? Maybe - or maybe it was the fact that we were all "gifted" enough to have passed the entrance exam, and with smaller classes & more funding I, like many others, had the attention we needed to concentrate & learn effectively.

Originally Posted by kronas

furthering an already skilled person in such away is discriminating against disabled people

So we shouldn't let gifted people achieve their full potential anymore? OK then. As long as they have a place in a school, regardless of whether they're being supported or not, we'll just leave them to it. They're clever enough to look after themselves. If they're bullied, well, it's not as if they need the education anyway is it, they're clever enough to learn on their own & get the grades they need.

Tell me, exactly how am I, or anyone else, discriminating against anyone by wanting the best education for their children? If I'm lucky enough to have children, I'd hope that, regardless of their IQ level, results of 7 & 11 year old tests, etc, they receive the most suitable level of education for their needs. If they require extra help with reading & writing, I hope the help & encouragement is there to gain the skills they need. If they're flying ahead in subjects, I hope they're not held back.

Originally Posted by scastle

While I don't object to the state providing better education for brighter kids, I think that it would cost too much to do it with Private Schools (and may actually leave the state funded Private School pupil open to insults). I think if any extra money is made available, it should be spent improving facilities within state schools.

I agree. I'm not suggesting that every gifted child should be given a private education, I just think that improvements need to be made somewhere and funding does need to be made available. This should NOT be taken from the budget that already exists for special needs education.

In this case, yes, the parents can probably afford to send their child to a private school themselves, but what about the people that can't? Every child should have the right to the level of education they need.

[Ramrod]

One point hasn't been mentioned (Unless I missed it).
Setting aside all the social arguments that have been raised, it would make sense for the state to pay more for very bright kids to receive better education as that would hopefully allow the country to do well internationally in business/technology/innovations etc....we would get a lot more back from investing in the gifted minds than we probably do from pouring money into the whole special needs area which probably just gets us slightly better educated dole claimants or McDonald's staff.(generalising, I know, but you get the idea)

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

One point hasn't been mentioned (Unless I missed it).
Setting aside all the social arguments that have been raised, it would make sense for the state to pay more for very bright kids to receive better education as that would hopefully allow the country to do well internationally in business/technology/innovations etc....we would get a lot more back from investing in the gifted minds than we probably do from pouring money into the whole special needs area which probably just gets us slightly better educated dole claimants or McDonald's staff.

I was under the impression that that idea of state education was to ensure everyone got at least a minimum education.

You appear to be looking at the problem from a business point of view (only invest in what is likely to give good returns). If we did invest in the brighter pupils at the expense of the special needs pupils we would possibly be consigning those special needs pupils to a life of poverty (benefits and/or low paid jobs). It would also impact those pupils that are bright, but do have a particular need for special tutition. As an example, I had a friend at school who had an IQ of around 180, but was dyslexic and needed extra tuitition to read and write. He got the extra tuitition and is now (I believe, although I haven't spoken to him) a Professor of Computing Science at the University of Manchester. If he hadn't got that extra tuitition (which he may not have if the money had gone to the kids percieved to be brighter), he would possibly be on the dole.

As I said in my earlier post, I am not opposed to the idea of bright kids getting extra education, but as long as extra money is provided. Sadly, I don't think any Government will do this, as it would require a lot of money and probably wouldn't get much in terms of improvement within the term of the government that instigated it. IE, they would have to invest for more than 4 years, which may actually impact on their votes.



As stated above, I am not against the idea of brighter pupils getting a better education. I just don't want to see it done at the expense

[zovat]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Children have the right to a state education. If a promisingly talented intelligent child cannot realise their potential in a state school then it is up to the parent to find a way to get his child into a private school that may give a higher standard of eduaction.

I agree wholeheartedly...

Originally Posted by Pierre

If he can't pay for a private school there are many good state schools out there, they may have to move home so the child can attend one.

This is certainly the best way - although some state schools will take children from just outside their official catchment area if they feel they have sufficient potential.

Originally Posted by Pierre

The child certainly does not have the "right" to go to a private school and the council should certainly not pay for it.

Again spot on...

Originally Posted by Pierre

There are scholaships that can be won, sponsorships that can obtained. The parent may have to get another job to fund it.

If the family cannot fund the education or find an alternative way of funding it then that, I am afraid, is a fact of life.

Unfortunately people don't always get what they want, or what they feel is right. In our society the more financially advantaged will always get the better deal.

Only too true I can assure you

Originally Posted by Pierre

Please don't dress this up under the "Special needs" banner. The child does not have special needs. She is a bright child that could perhaps do with going to a "better" school.

She is no more special needs than a toe rag scally kid that refuses to be taught.

If she is indeed so intelligent, she will still obtain al her GCSEs, A levels and whatever degree she chooses.

Once again a valid point..

Ok - now for my 2c...

My family put me through "private" school (subsidised by the military) after I got to the stage where I had finished all the primary school maths books (and the first 2 of the local secondary school books) by the time I was part way into my last year at primary school.

I sat an exam (the first I knew of it was when I was called in to see the headmistress) and passed.

When my mum divorced my stepdad, she took a crappy settlement to ensure that he continued to pay for me to complete boarding school...

had I not gone to that school, I would have ended up with nothing, because I needed to be motivated in order to achieve - Had I gone to the local state school I would have got away with doing nothing, and would have done so.

I now have a good job, with a good salary, and help my family out whenever I can..

If my kids (when I have them) need to be educated to that higher level, then I will find a way to pay for it..
I do not expect the local council to pay, why should they - as already stated it is more important to help those who need it in order to achieve the basic level of education, than to help someone who is able to achieve beyond that level...

It may sound harsh, but from my own schooling I can sympathise with those that say being gifted is a double edged sword, and if they are forced to be educated with others who are holding them back, then they will get bored and not learn as well as they might... I have been there, I know how true that is.. but my family found a way to fund my education, and believe me they are not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination.
If they can do it, why can't others...

There are plenty of scholarships, bursaries and part funded places at private schools. If a child shows enough talent (normaly there are exams involved) then the odds are that one of them will help fund their education.

thats my opinion - feel free to agree/disagree as you wish ;-)