a 'disability' or not ?

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by homealone

it is happening

http://www.cableforum.co.uk/board/sh...2&postcount=13

Thanks. Yep, I read that.
Making provision for recognising it and bringing it to the attention of the parents and the school is one thing but funding the next step and making it actually happen for those children is quite another (and judging by some people's attitudes it could be quite a hurdle).
Some private schools do offer scholarships for gifted children from families who cannot afford the fees but this kind of thing is rare and usually only a partial funding.

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by kronas

yes exactly, i hear people crying 'you dont understand' 'untill you have had a kid' blah blah ofcourse i do, i understand more then people realise, if i was in the same situation i would pay out of my own money to fund my childs 'special learning procedure' not ask the state to give me a handout, its like asking someone else to pay my council tax

It is all very well you saying "I would pay out of my own pocket" but what if you simply CAN'T afford to pay. Should a child suffer because of a parents inability to give them what they need? This applies to special needs at both ends of the scale.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Flubflow

It is all very well you saying "I would pay out of my own pocket" but what if you simply CAN'T afford to pay. Should a child suffer because of a parents inability to give them what they need? This applies to special needs at both ends of the scale.

at the higher end yes, you could always pay for extrahome tuition in certain subjects such as english and geography to keep interest up, remember science and maths is the persons strong point.......

at the lower end of the scale, people who are disabled should get full help and support, they need it the most!!!!

[Flubflow]

Originally Posted by kronas

at the higher end yes, you could always pay for extrahome tuition in certain subjects such as english and geography to keep interest up, remember science and maths is the persons strong point.......

at the lower end of the scale, people who are disabled should get full help and support, they need it the most!!!!

So the child at the "higher end" should suffer because they have had the misfortune to be blessed with a higher learning capacity? Is that what you are saying?
Extra home tuition as a solution is just is not suitable for gifted children. I t can make matters worse when they go to school and are left even more wanting. It is fine if for example a child has been away from school perhaps due to a long illness and needs to catch up.
I know it is not very PC to suggest that we should divert money away from children with a clinically recognised disability but when it comes to the crunch we should not be talking in terms of higher and lower ends anyway. They all have a certain need and it has to be catered for.
We have to get out of this "nobody likes a smartarse" mentality and let those who have that certain ability (or disability!) to be able to simply get a fair slice of the cake. What I see is a fair chunk of that cake being spent on the general devil spawn children who are in need of there own special class but not clinically diagnosed with a diability. If we have a system for those kids then we should be able to do something for the FEW who are exceptionally gifted.

[Stuartbe]

Originally Posted by kronas

well yes thats obvious



so you want to be selfish and take funds away from wheelchair autistic paraplegic etc disabled children to fulfill your selfish stance, just because your kid is a genius or has a high IQ, very good of you

Carlingman got it spot on m8.. Why cant you ????

I said that I Would pay for all costs.. My family is the most important thing to me, More important than the budget, more important than the goverment and more important than anyone !!! FACT....

Perhaps you should look at posts in more detail before you reply ! I would be more than happy to fully fund my childs education... Sadly I have not been given that chance... Maybe if you are ever given the opertunity you will react differently and not stick to your single minded attitude !!!

[monel]

Originally Posted by scastle

Excellent post. And I totally agree.

I thought the basic idea of Special Needs teaching is to ensure everyone gets a basic education. Surely, if councils have to pay for some kids to go to private school because they are too bright, then (what with budgets being limited) the people who geniunely need extra education will suffer?

My son is in mainstream school,despite having special needs,because it was my belief that this is where he can best excell at the subjects he is good at,even at 10 he knows more about computing than his teacher and infact has helped fix her pc twice...LOl...
For the information of the poster who suggested that millions are pumped into the support of those with disbailities,I would love to see where that cash actually goes,cos my son has been waiting for 5 years for a support SEN to be with him,and in the end,I have had to fund her wage myself.........
With that said,I think that Charles Clark could perhaps look into a regional budget for special needs of all spectrums on a regional basis,looking at the amount of support required and fund it specifically to a city to city basis...that way,those who need help will get it and the ares who get more cash than they need will get a reassessment of needs so that the benefits of financial support can be had by those who really need it most.

[Pierre]

Children have the right to a state education. If a promisingly talented intelligent child cannot realise their potential in a state school then it is up to the parent to find a way to get his child into a private school that may give a higher standard of eduaction.

If he can't pay for a private school there are many good state schools out there, they may have to move home so the child can attend one.

The child certainly does not have the "right" to go to a private school and the council should certainly not pay for it.

There are scholaships that can be won, sponsorships that can obtained. The parent may have to get another job to fund it.

If the family cannot fund the education or find an alternative way of funding it then that, I am afraid, is a fact of life.

Unfortunately people don't always get what they want, or what they feel is right. In our society the more financially advantaged will always get the better deal.

Please don't dress this up under the "Special needs" banner. The child does not have special needs. She is a bright child that could perhaps do with going to a "better" school.

She is no more special needs than a toe rag scally kid that refuses to be taught.

If she is indeed so intelligent, she will still obtain al her GCSEs, A levels and whatever degree she chooses.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by MovedGoalPosts

How do you decide the threshold standard for "exceptionally gifted". And in what types of gift?

I don't know....IQ above 120

Originally Posted by kronas

i do understand, but i dont expect others to pay for my sons fees no matter how gifted he is.........

its taking money away from people who really need it

But if your son is gifted he does really need it...

Originally Posted by kronas

so you want to be selfish and take funds away from wheelchair autistic paraplegic etc disabled children to fulfill your selfish stance, just because your kid is a genius or has a high IQ, very good of you

Hang on....no one wants to take money away from anyone, we just want to ensure that everyone reaches there full potential.

Originally Posted by Flubflow

Our state schools cater only for the average yet if we can find millions of pounds for all the various lower levels special needs then we should perhaps pump a few quid more into the system to help the higher special needs.

Exactly

[CaKe]

Originally Posted by kronas

if the parents cannot achieve funding then simply moving them up a class or two can retain there sanity.........

Hmm, at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I'd like to say that this isn't always an option. Both my sister & I were classed as "gifted", yet were stuck in mainstream education until the age of 11. It is hard for gifted children to cope with "normal" education, it's easy to get bored when you're doing workbooks you were capable of doing 2/3 years ago. But the school wouldn't fast-track either of us, because they felt that by doing that, they'd be making us susceptible to bullies, and that as a result we'd suffer. We suffered anyway with the work we were given, I can remember being sent off to the library countless times to read because the teachers had no work for me.

Both of us went to a private school from 11-17 (I left after the first year of 6th form, my sister is in her final year) and the level of schooling is different to state schools. It's not just for rich kids either - the school I went to has exceptional exam results, and you do have to sit an entrance exam to be accepted (although I'm sure there's always the cases where mummy & daddy flash some cash & are accepted). If the entrance exam result is exceptionally good, they offer you a scholarship (I think 3 were available each year in my school, increased to about 15 in the 6th form)

There were huge differences in methods of teaching, there were huge changes in the support available, class sizes were smaller; it was all so different & so much more challenging. I do believe that some, not all, private schools are better for gifted children.

Now, onto funding Up until 1997, Government-funded Assisted Places were available for a certain percentage of students. For the first 3 years of my secondary education, my parents paid £13 a term for me to go to school. Now, my dad pays £1300 a term for my sister as his salary has increased. I personally don't see why these were scrapped - it enabled probably about 30% of my year to go to school. One of my best friends at school was exceptionally gifted - she went on to Oxbridge & did very well for herself, and I know for a fact she wouldn't have been able to go had she not been granted an assisted place. They were also limited to pupils who would benefit from the education provided at the school.

I do believe that there should be some funding available to send gifted children to a school where they will benefit from the teaching - whether this is a private school, or a tutor. It is hard to grow up being gifted. This said, I don't believe you can class gifted children under the same support act as autistic children etc - no funding should be taken away to give these children the level of support they need either. Maybe assisted places should be reinstated - they'd give a lot more children the opportunities they need.

Please don't dismiss gifted children though - I don't think you can class it as a disability, but they are special needs & do need to be treated & taught differently.

ETA : link for eligibility of assisted places http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_19952016_en_3.htm

[Pierre]

Both of us went to a private school from 11-17 (I left after the first year of 6th form, my sister is in her final year) and the level of schooling is different to state schools. It's not just for rich kids either - the school I went to has exceptional exam results, and you do have to sit an entrance exam to be accepted (although I'm sure there's always the cases where mummy & daddy flash some cash & are accepted). If the entrance exam result is exceptionally good, they offer you a scholarship (I think 3 were available each year in my school, increased to about 15 in the 6th form)

Exactly, where there's a will.........

Maybe assisted places should be reinstated - they'd give a lot more children the opportunities they need

Agreed, "assisted" being the word, it should not all paid for the local authority and should be available to all that pass an exam and are accepted by said school.

[Matuka]

This is pathetic!

Those children that actually have problems learning and ARE in need of special attention & help at school are constantly denied it because of the low budget that schools get for this, and this Doctor who most likely earns a hell lot more than a lot of us want the council to pay so that his daughter gets better tuition than the rest.

If she is so bright, then let her have the normal education & go onto higher further education later, or then the parents should pay for her to go to a private school. She will only end up working in Macdonalds anyway!

Originally Posted by kronas

so what we fast track them ?


how would you like it incog if i had a genius kid and told you to pay for my sons tuition see the 'fair' approach there ?

Yes of course I do! I expect the government to support these children on MINE and your behalf.I expect a fair deal for ALL children from the government.After all this country and the world wil benefit if we educate these children well and allow them to reach the utmost of their potential.Maybe somewhere out there is a genius who will finally conquer cancer,old age,faster than light travel,unlimited power.

They are a very small group kronas much smaller than the group who currently receive millions under the status of Special Needs and to be frank I don't see that there will be much return on those millions.The amount given to support children with Attention Deficit Disorder is never commented on.Why is it right to support these children but not those who need just as specialised education such as genius children.Not every such child has a wealthy parent tucked away.

Incog.

Originally Posted by CaKe

Hmm, at the risk of blowing my own trumpet, I'd like to say that this isn't always an option. Both my sister & I were classed as "gifted", yet were stuck in mainstream education until the age of 11. It is hard for gifted children to cope with "normal" education, it's easy to get bored when you're doing workbooks you were capable of doing 2/3 years ago. But the school wouldn't fast-track either of us, because they felt that by doing that, they'd be making us susceptible to bullies, and that as a result we'd suffer. We suffered anyway with the work we were given, I can remember being sent off to the library countless times to read because the teachers had no work for me.

Both of us went to a private school from 11-17 (I left after the first year of 6th form, my sister is in her final year) and the level of schooling is different to state schools. It's not just for rich kids either - the school I went to has exceptional exam results, and you do have to sit an entrance exam to be accepted (although I'm sure there's always the cases where mummy & daddy flash some cash & are accepted). If the entrance exam result is exceptionally good, they offer you a scholarship (I think 3 were available each year in my school, increased to about 15 in the 6th form)

There were huge differences in methods of teaching, there were huge changes in the support available, class sizes were smaller; it was all so different & so much more challenging. I do believe that some, not all, private schools are better for gifted children.

Now, onto funding Up until 1997, Government-funded Assisted Places were available for a certain percentage of students. For the first 3 years of my secondary education, my parents paid £13 a term for me to go to school. Now, my dad pays £1300 a term for my sister as his salary has increased. I personally don't see why these were scrapped - it enabled probably about 30% of my year to go to school. One of my best friends at school was exceptionally gifted - she went on to Oxbridge & did very well for herself, and I know for a fact she wouldn't have been able to go had she not been granted an assisted place. They were also limited to pupils who would benefit from the education provided at the school.

I do believe that there should be some funding available to send gifted children to a school where they will benefit from the teaching - whether this is a private school, or a tutor. It is hard to grow up being gifted. This said, I don't believe you can class gifted children under the same support act as autistic children etc - no funding should be taken away to give these children the level of support they need either. Maybe assisted places should be reinstated - they'd give a lot more children the opportunities they need.

Please don't dismiss gifted children though - I don't think you can class it as a disability, but they are special needs & do need to be treated & taught differently.

ETA : link for eligibility of assisted places http://www.hmso.gov.uk/si/si1995/Uksi_19952016_en_3.htm

Your comments support all I've been trying to say.
I hope you and your sister do well in life.

Incog.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Exactly, where there's a will.........



Agreed, "assisted" being the word, it should not all paid for the local authority and should be available to all that pass an exam and are accepted by said school.

Agreed but if necessary then the funding must be found if parents cannot afford to contribute.

Incog.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Yes of course I do! I expect the government to support these children on MINE and your behalf.I expect a fair deal for ALL children from the government.After all this country and the world wil benefit if we educate these children well and allow them to reach the utmost of their potential.Maybe somewhere out there is a genius who will finally conquer cancer,old age,faster than light travel,unlimited power.

They are a very small group kronas much smaller than the group who currently receive millions under the status of Special Needs and to be frank I don't see that there will be much return on those millions.The amount given to support children with Attention Deficit Disorder is never commented on.Why is it right to support these children but not those who need just as specialised education such as genius children.Not every such child has a wealthy parent tucked away.
Incog.

Very well said!