another abuser caught

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by Graham

I'm sorry if people think I'm being negative or "not supplying solutions", but the fact is that any system can be beaten if someone wants to try hard enough.

I'm not trying to be inflammatory and I don't necessarily agree, but one social worker I know privately advocated life in jail or the death penalty for certain types of paedophile.

[downquark1]

There are far,far,far to many people concerned about the rights of the Paedophile (and criminals in general)

The sentences are too leniant, and when they are let out the support from social services and police just isn't good enough.

Strange how just one or two or them are on this forum then
I see it as a problem that should be tried to be fixed, if it can be fixed in some cases it should be, obviously each case is different, but I don't accept your answer of there is not 'cure' until more research is carried out or more evidence is collected.
Some people are capable of suppressing desires others aren't, there is no point assuming every case is the same.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by downquark1

I see it as a problem that should be tried to be fixed, if it can be fixed in some cases it should be, obviously each case is different, but I don't accept your answer of there is not 'cure' until more research is carried out or more evidence is collected.
Some people are capable of suppressing desires others aren't, there is no point assuming every case is the same.

Nice sentiments but if there is a man eating tiger prowling around picking off people I'm not going to try to wean him off the taste of human and back onto goat and hope that the conditioning takes....let him out again and seeing what happens. Fingers crossed eh?

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Nice sentiments but if there is a man eating tiger prowling around picking off people I'm not going to try to wean him off the taste of human and back onto goat and hope that the conditioning takes....let him out again and seeing what happens. Fingers crossed eh?

What do you do with the tiger then? Keep it locked up for the rest of it's life, shoot it, there will always be tigers like this, what do you do? Kill all tigers?

[Pierre]

but I don't accept your answer of there is not 'cure' until more research is carried out or more evidence is collected.
Some people are capable of suppressing desires others aren't, there is no point assuming every case is the same.

I agree that more research and evidence is required.

Some people are capable of supressing their desires, but that would not constitute are cure. A cure would be to remove the desire not supress it. I doubt, in my opinion, that is possible.

You can't change the basis "make up" of a person. You read about transsexuals that have been bin men/policemen etc and lead what you call normal lives. They then shock everybody by saying that they want to be women and that they have been living a lie all their lives. Who they are came through eventually.

You cannot change the basic make up of who or what you are.

[Pierre]

What do you do with the tiger then? Keep it locked up for the rest of it's life, shoot it, there will always be tigers like this, what do you do? Kill all tigers?

Tigers belong in the jungle, if a tiger was walking/ prowling your neighbourhood it would be either shot or captured.

[downquark1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

I agree that more research and evidence is required.

Some people are capable of supressing their desires, but that would not constitute are cure. A cure would be to remove the desire not supress it. I doubt, in my opinion, that is possible.

That's why you treat the disease, not all diseases are curable but in this society we still treat them to make it easier for the person to live. Including mental diseases.

[Pierre]

That's why you treat the disease, not all diseases are curable but in this society we still treat them to make it easier for the person to live. Including mental diseases

I agree. I'm not saying do not try to treat these people, but how effective is the treatment. can we be sure that anyone having treatment will not re-offend. Also what is the standard of the treatment across the board. As I have mentioned earlier are all offenders receiving treatment when they come out? what is the back up once they have been released.

Originally Posted by Pierre

In my opinion I think you're right.

There are far,far,far to many people concerned about the rights of the Paedophile (and criminals in general)

Nice switch of subject there and a clever bit of editing to make it look as if I said something I didn't...

We don't have to read their minds, we know what they are, they have already proved what they are and been convicted for what they are.

Almost right, except that where you say "are" you should say "have done" *past* tense.

"Counselling" yes stick them in a room "Paedos Anomonous" I doubt the "counselling" available to them from the state is of the quality or the quantity that would be required to have a lasting affect. Yes, that is an assumption but you only have to look at the quality of other social services to know that I am not wrong,

It's a pity Sociable isn't here at the moment. I think he'd have something to say about you denigrating the *entire* Social Services system in this way.

And I still stand by main point of this thread that they cannot be "cured".

I've addressed that already, I'm not going to do it again.

Put them on a register, yes. I believe the guy that killed Sarah Payne was on a register. Registers do nothing.

You again take *one* example and try to make it a general case.

Try to prevent them from re-offending, Sorry, trying isn't good enough. They "must" be preveted from re-offending.

We are not talking about suspected paedo's here. This are ones that have been convicted. If we let them out and they kill or rape again we are guilty of negligence.

Nonsense.

Short of locking *everyone* up for life, there is *no way* to prevent *everyone* from re-offending, be they child molesters, rapists, murderers or anything else.

If *any* of them re-offend, are we *also* guilty of negligence?

How can you look the parents of a murdered child in the eye and say "sorry, we made mistake, we shouldn't have let him out, we should have watched him a bit more carefully. We wont let him out again though"

More emotional argument.

Once again I remind you that around *eighty five percent* of children who are abused suffer at the hands of a family/ close relative.

Also, despite the massive media coverage that such stories get, the actual number of children murdered is extremely small.

You would, again, do more good if, instead of demanding tougher sentences for child abusers, demand tougher sentences for drunk/ careless drivers who inflict *much* more suffering and pain *EVERY YEAR*.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

I'm not trying to be inflammatory and I don't necessarily agree, but one social worker I know privately advocated life in jail or the death penalty for certain types of paedophile.

I'm sure they did. But are they representative of *all* social workers? And I note you say "certain types of paedophile", not all.

Originally Posted by Ramrod

Nice sentiments but if there is a man eating tiger prowling around picking off people I'm not going to try to wean him off the taste of human and back onto goat and hope that the conditioning takes....let him out again and seeing what happens. Fingers crossed eh?

So what do you do instead? Lock the tiger up for life? Or shoot it?

And what about all the *other* tigers? Lock them all up or shoot them too? Better safe than sorry, eh...?

Edit: Ok, this is getting spooky! This is the second or third time recently I've posted something in reply to a message only to find that Downquark1 has posted a very similar thing just a few messages later...!!

Originally Posted by Pierre

I agree that more research and evidence is required.

I'm glad to hear that, at least.

You can't change the basis "make up" of a person. You read about transsexuals that have been bin men/policemen etc and lead what you call normal lives. They then shock everybody by saying that they want to be women and that they have been living a lie all their lives. Who they are came through eventually.

You cannot change the basic make up of who or what you are.

Oh now you are *DEFINITELY* going *WAY* too far!

You *CANNOT* compare transsexuals to a child abuser! Nor can you suggest unless you have some *REAL* evidence instead of just supposition, that what causes a person to abuse a child is in *ANY* way related to what makes a person feel that they are in the "wrong body"!!

The fact is that *nobody* knows what causes someone to abuse child, just as *nobody* knows what causes someone to feel they are the wrong sex.

This comment from you is completely unacceptable and I suggest you withdraw it immediately.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Tigers belong in the jungle, if a tiger was walking/ prowling your neighbourhood it would be either shot or captured.

What a wonderfully faulty analogy...

[Pierre]

Nonsense.

Short of locking *everyone* up for life, there is *no way* to prevent *everyone* from re-offending, be they child molesters, rapists, murderers or anything else.

If *any* of them re-offend, are we *also* guilty of negligence?

But I also believe that Rapists should also get much tougher sentences. I wouldn't mind them getting life either.Rape is a horrible crime, I in 5 rapists get a jail term of less than 5 years. If you commit murder you'll likely go to jail for life anyway.

I am also in favour of tougher sentences for Drink Drivers. A drunk or dangerous driver that kills someone can only be charged with a "motoring offence" - Unbelievable. They don't even get manslaughter, I am in agreement with you there. If you want to start a thread on that subject please do so but that is not what we're talking about.

and that does not detract from my feelings on this subject

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by downquark1

What do you do with the tiger then? Keep it locked up for the rest of it's life, shoot it, there will always be tigers like this, what do you do? Kill all tigers?

You make sure that the tiger cannot eat humans again....kill it or capture it.