lib dems: we will scrap council tax

[Charlie_Bubble]

Totally stupid idea in my opinion. At the moment they have to contend with people moving houses/areas to add extra admin burden, but think of the number of times some people change jobs. Changes in area and jobs together would increase the admin time and money wasted collecting the tax. Then there's the question of where is it collected? Most people don't live anywhere near where they work. Will it be collected at the work area or at the home area. Who's responsibility is it to pay the tax, the company you work for or you? How are they going to find out your income? Are they going to have access to everyones tax, income and financial data? What about all the people who work for cash in hand? At the moment they know what your house is like and judge you on that. This local tax idea puts so many different and changing variables into the pot that half the money would be spent trying to get the ever-changing info on peoples wages, let alone collecting it.

I notice they've also said p0rn should be available to everyone 16+:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3553273.stm

Didn't they back legalisation of drugs a while back too. Sure they don't want to start running for office in the netherlands rather than the UK?

Originally Posted by Charlie_Bubble

there's the question of where is it collected? Most people don't live anywhere near where they work. Will it be collected at the work area or at the home area. Who's responsibility is it to pay the tax, the company you work for or you? How are they going to find out your income? Are they going to have access to everyones tax, income and financial data?

Well the government already *has* access to all your income data etc, so the easiest way would be to include it on the PAYE code which would deal with the vast majority of people in the country. It wouldn't be that difficult to split the money taken into "for the government" and "for X local council".

What about all the people who work for cash in hand?

What about all the people who live at temporary address and move around to where the work is *and* do it cash in hand already?

They're using resources and utilities that everyone else is paying for, but not paying anything themselves. Is that fair?

At the moment they know what your house is like and judge you on that.

No, they know what your house was like in 1991, over *twelve years* ago!

This local tax idea puts so many different and changing variables into the pot that half the money would be spent trying to get the ever-changing info on peoples wages, let alone collecting it.

I disagree, I think most of those variables are easily dealt with, eg it's very easy to base the tax on a person's income in the previous year (as tax is worked out anyway). If there's a major change, they can appeal, just as they can appeal against council tax.

I notice they've also said p0rn should be available to everyone 16+:

That's being addressed in another thread, here:

http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showp...2&postcount=29

Can we keep this thread to one topic, please.

[Charlie_Bubble]

Originally Posted by Graham

Well the government already *has* access to all your income data etc, so the easiest way would be to include it on the PAYE code which would deal with the vast majority of people in the country. It wouldn't be that difficult to split the money taken into "for the government" and "for X local council".



What about all the people who live at temporary address and move around to where the work is *and* do it cash in hand already?

They're using resources and utilities that everyone else is paying for, but not paying anything themselves. Is that fair?



No, they know what your house was like in 1991, over *twelve years* ago!



I disagree, I think most of those variables are easily dealt with, eg it's very easy to base the tax on a person's income in the previous year (as tax is worked out anyway). If there's a major change, they can appeal, just as they can appeal against council tax.



That's being addressed in another thread, here:

http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showp...2&postcount=29

Can we keep this thread to one topic, please.

National government has had access to my tax records, to my knowledge local government doesn't.

I would presume that people following work around and working cash in hand are living in houses they don't own for short periods and the person renting them the house is probably paying it as they wouldn't want their house on a credit blacklist and presumably make enough from the rent anyway.

Surely, a tax on peoples income should be on their income now, not last year. This would be as unfair as this current system or the poll tax.

Why should local councils trust the central government to collect and hand over this money. The whole problem at the moment is that they collect business rates for the government, which hands it back due to their own formula. If this is the case, what is to say that people living in certain areas won't be subsidising others once again, making the concept of a 'local' tax completely false!

The rate at which houses have risen since 1991 would presumably be fairly constant in local areas, meaning it doesn't matter if it's the value of your house now or 15 years ago, it's still a house.

[Charlie_Bubble]

Originally Posted by Graham

That's being addressed in another thread, here:

http://forum.nthellworld.co.uk/showp...2&postcount=29

Can we keep this thread to one topic, please.

Gee, so sorry to have written a sentence not 100% on topic. I don't scan every single post in all the forums before writing each sentence, just in case there is thread about it already.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Charlie_Bubble

National government has had access to my tax records, to my knowledge local government doesn't.

I think they do. I don't know for sure though.

Actually, thinking about it, wouldn't the job of calculating the tax be done by the Inland Revenue (which may have to be re-organised), which does have access to your income tax records?

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Charlie_Bubble

Gee, so sorry to have written a sentence not 100% on topic. I don't scan every single post in all the forums before writing each sentence, just in case there is thread about it already.

No need for sarcasm.

[Charlie_Bubble]

Originally Posted by scastle

I think they do. I don't know for sure though.

Actually, thinking about it, wouldn't the job of calculating the tax be done by the Inland Revenue (which may have to be re-organised), which does have access to your income tax records?

I doubt they do. Many national government departments can't share information, so I don't see how a local government would be able to. In fact, I think there was a bit of an outcry recently when the government said this kind of thing might be allowed, ie local governments officials able to access more data on people.

[Charlie_Bubble]

Originally Posted by scastle

No need for sarcasm.

Well, no need to really tack on a sarcastic toned request at the end of his reply to my post. That point was 99% on topic. This is a thread about the Lib Dems and their future policies. My point was about the lib dems and their future policies. Someone has introduced information about this lib dem move into another thread about pornography. It is not a thread about the lib dems attitude to pornography, so the post in that thread could be taken as off topic for that that thread as mine is to this one.

I'm sure that if I thought this idea by the lib dems was wonderful and had posted as such, my last comment wouldn't have been found off topic. It's not as if I suddenly started talking about something completely unconnected to the lib dems and their future policies.

[Stuart]

Originally Posted by Charlie_Bubble

I doubt they do. Many national government departments can't share information, so I don't see how a local government would be able to. In fact, I think there was a bit of an outcry recently when the government said this kind of thing might be allowed, ie local governments officials able to access more data on people.

True, although your tax records are available to more people than you would think. I know this, as I know people who work for central government. And I know for a fact that some local government departments have access to your National Insurance record for instance.

Oh, and this thread is called "lib dems: we will scrap council tax". No mention of other policies. So, no, there is still no need for sarcasm.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by homealone

aha - 18 & not in full time education, suddenly you have to either pay, or claim an exemption

*runs and hides :pp

Originally Posted by homealone

who pays to administer these 'local taxes' Kronas?

proberbly out of the funds generated.

Originally Posted by homealone

Kronas? - why do we need an extra tier of organisation, like 'Yorkshire Forward'?

lol, we need it because some councils get more or less, this 'should' ensure the money collected gets spent in areas that need it...........wheres that BBC article............

[MovedGoalPosts]

Of course the biggest problem with any local taxation, be it the ancient rates (on which the current council tax is not that dissimilar) or even the much hated polll tax, is that it is the only amount of funding that the local authority can change.

Central Government grants and Business Rates are both forwarded to the council, as the government sees fit. Thus any shortfall in funding can only come from Council Tax.

The real problem with Council Tax is thus the need to reform local authorities spending plans, and ensure they get proper central government grants. If this is not dealt with, however local tax is raised will always meet with dissapproval due to perceived unfair burdens.

Never trust a politician to tell you the whole truth.They are extremely profficient at being 'economical with the truth'.

The Lib Dems just haven't told the whole truth.

Incog.

Originally Posted by Charlie_Bubble

National government has had access to my tax records, to my knowledge local government doesn't.

But if it's collected by PAYE it shouldn't matter, should it?

Surely, a tax on peoples income should be on their income now, not last year. This would be as unfair as this current system or the poll tax.

Most people's incomes don't change massively from one year to the next. Those that do can appeal with reasonable proof. Also if you're self-employed and self-assessed, your tax is based on last year's figures already.

Why should local councils trust the central government to collect and hand over this money.

I would hope (although my cynicism is saying "hah!" at the moment!) that the system was designed to be transparent enough that it would be easy to see if the central government was bilking the system for their benefit and it could be questioned.

The whole problem at the moment is that they collect business rates for the government, which hands it back due to their own formula. If this is the case, what is to say that people living in certain areas won't be subsidising others once again, making the concept of a 'local' tax completely false!

Well that's the current system with Council Tax as well, ie the government allegedly giving money to Labour areas in the North at the cost of those in the South.

The rate at which houses have risen since 1991 would presumably be fairly constant in local areas, meaning it doesn't matter if it's the value of your house now or 15 years ago, it's still a house.

Not in the slightest! There are "fashionable areas" (even in a small city like Portsmouth) where house prices have gone through the roof whilst only a few miles away the rate of increase has been much less.

If you've been living in one of those areas since before when house prices were assessed, you could be faced with a massive rise in tax through no fault of your own.

Originally Posted by Charlie_Bubble

Well, no need to really tack on a sarcastic toned request at the end of his reply to my post.

There was no sarcasm present, nor intended. I'm sorry you read it in that way, but it was simply an attempt to stop this thread about Council Tax getting diverted into other areas.

Originally Posted by Incognitas

Never trust a politician to tell you the whole truth.They are extremely profficient at being 'economical with the truth'.

The Lib Dems just haven't told the whole truth.

Whilst I may, cynically, agree with you, what do you think the Lib Dems are hiding? Perhaps they have decided on a new tack and *are* telling the truth?