a 'sign' or pure 'coincidence'

[El Diablo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Russ D
From you saying 'confirmed' this would appear to be Catholicism, I'm a little confused as to how you had Christianity 'pushed' on you if you had Catholic teaching.

JESUS!
You're joking right? Errr.... but isn't Catholicism a part of Christianity then? So where's the border? Next to the Protestants.... Blatant disregard to any Chritian faith is to assume the upper hand... May you burn for ever....

If you'd ever been to a Catholic school, you'd surely understand how Christianity gets 'pushed' upon you.... :******:

[El Diablo]

Originally posted by Ramrod
Also, I have been experimented on with an induction coil.

Somehow I feel that I've read enough already

[danielf]

Originally posted by El Diablo
Somehow I feel that I've read enough already

I'm certainly hoping you don't make it to my posts

[Stuart]

Originally posted by Ramrod
Hmmmm...no, I think it is a statement of fact. If a non religious person can (in a laboratory) be made to have a 'religous experience' and it is shown that the experience was due to dye in the coronary arteries or by having a current (remotely) induced in a part of the brain(with an induction coil), then either we are getting God to perform on cue for our whim or we are demonstrating that there is more than one reason for a 'religious experience'.

I suppose that it could be true (not saying it is). You can alter a person's perception of their world through drugs. If you could control the drugs, and what areas of the brain are affected, you could implant a "suggestion" of a religious experience.

I am speculating here though. I don't know if the above is actually possible with today's medical technology..

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by danielf


Let's just say that you'd have difficulty publishing these results in peer reviewed journals whith 'religious experiences' in the title of the paper.

Of course you would not be able to publish this stuff in anything other than Fortean Times . However the same can be said of 'authentic' experiences.

[Ramrod]

Interestingly:

SPECT neuroimaging in schizophrenia with religious delusions.

Puri BK, Lekh SK, Nijran KS, Bagary MS, Richardson AJ.

MRI Unit, MRC Clinical Sciences Centre, Imperial College School of Medicine, Hammersmith Hospital, Du Cane Road, W12 0HS, London, UK.

Functional neuroimaging techniques such as single-positron emission computed tomography (SPECT) and positron emission tomography (PET) offer considerable scope for investigating disturbances of brain activity in psychiatric disorders. However, the heterogeneous nature of disorders such as schizophrenia limits the value of studies that group patients under this global label. Some have addressed this problem by considering schizophrenia at a syndromal level, but so far, few have focussed at the level of individual symptoms. We describe the first neuroimaging study of the specific symptom of religious delusions in schizophrenia. 99mTc HMPAO high-resolution SPECT neuroimaging showed an association of religious delusions with left temporal overactivation and reduced occipital uptake, particularly on the left.


and:


The serotonergic system and mysticism: could LSD and the nondrug-induced mystical experience share common neural mechanisms?

Goodman N.

Bioelectrostatics Research Centre, Electronics and Computer Science, University of Southampton, United Kingdom.

This article aims to explore, through established scientific research and documented accounts of personal experience, the similarities between religious mystical experiences and some effects of D-lysergic diethylamide or LSD. LSD predominantly works upon the serotonergic (serotonin-using neurons) diffuse neuromodulatory system, which projects its axons to virtually all areas of the brain including the neocortex. By its normal action it modulates awareness of the environmental surroundings and filters a high proportion of this information before it can be processed, thereby only allowing the amount of information that is necessary for survival. LSD works to open this filter, and so an increased amount of somatosensory data is processed with a corresponding increase in what is deemed important. This article describes the effects and actions of LSD, and due to the similarities with the nondrug-induced mystical experience the author proposes that the two could have common modes of action upon the brain. This could lead to avenues of research into mysticism and a wealth of knowledge on consciousness and how we perceive the universe.

and:

Mystical experience and schizophrenia.

Buckley P.

Autobiographical accounts of acute mystical experience and schizophrenia are compared in order to examine the similarities between the two states. The appearance of a powerful sense of noesis, heightening of perception, feelings of communion with the "divine," and exultation may be common to both. The disruption of thought seen in the acute psychoses is not a component of the accounts of mystical experience reviewed by the author, and auditory hallucinations are less common than visual hallucinations in the mystical state. The ease with which elements of the acute mystical experience can be induced in possession cults or in an experimental situation suggests that the capacity for such an altered state experience may be latently present in many people. It is postulated that there is a limited repertoire of response within the nervous system for altered state experiences such as acute psychosis and mystical experience, even though the precipitants and etiology may be quite different.

Originally posted by Ramrod
Of course you would not be able to publish this stuff in anything other than Fortean Times . However the same can be said of 'authentic' experiences.

Aren't we forgetting that demonstrating it's possible to simulate a religious experience in a laboratory is light years away from proving that 'god' is all in the mind?

For a start, the average man in the street doesn't come into contact with induction coils every day. And he doesn't regularly shoot up with ink either.

I think the final paragraph you quoted yesterday is very, very telling. All these scientists might have discovered is the mechanism created by God to allow him to interact with us in the physical universe.

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by towny
Aren't we forgetting that demonstrating it's possible to simulate a religious experience in a laboratory is light years away from proving that 'god' is all in the mind?

I'm not trying to prove that 'god is all in the mind'. I am merely trying to demonstrate that there appears to be sufficient evidence that there are other (non religious) mechanisms that can sometimes come into play.

For a start, the average man in the street doesn't come into contact with induction coils every day. And he doesn't regularly shoot up with ink either.

So what?

I think the final paragraph you quoted yesterday is very, very telling. All these scientists might have discovered is the mechanism created by God to allow him to interact with us in the physical universe.

Absolutely. However, as I keep saying:

It is a thorny one if you are prepared to accept that we can ask God to manifest his presence on the whim of a medic/scientist, at a given time and place. If you feel that the above is either ludicrous or beneath God, then you must accept that the phenomenon is (at least sometimes) man made and not divinely inspired.

anyhoo.....I'm off to Bluewater with my youngest, cyas later

Originally posted by Ramrod
anyhoo.....I'm off to Bluewater with my youngest, cyas later

enjoy!

[danielf]

Originally posted by Ramrod

anyhoo.....I'm off to Bluewater with my youngest, cyas later

When you get back, can you ask one of the mods to edit your earlier post (the one with the references to the 'papers'). It's not nice to post other people's email addresses on a public forum...

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by danielf
When you get back, can you ask one of the mods to edit your earlier post (the one with the references to the 'papers'). It's not nice to post other people's email addresses on a public forum...

ah, cr*p
Then again, I got the reference from a public area.
*off to find a mod*
-just pm'd Andre-

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by towny
enjoy!

We did, ta

Originally posted by Ramrod
We did, ta

That was quick ... I thought Bluewater was meant to be a grand day out or something

[Ramrod]

Originally posted by towny
That was quick ... I thought Bluewater was meant to be a grand day out or something

lol, we're only 5 miles away

[Dave Stones]

as far as im concerned, everyone should be left to believe what they want and not have anything forced on them by anyone else

me, im an atheist i dont believe in religion at the moment, doubt i ever will but hey who knows. i dont force my views on anyone else though, as far as im concerened they can believe anything they want to if it makes them happy and doesnt affect anyone else.

also im probably slightly skeptical cos it gets into the nasty exponential argument of if god exists and created us, what created god, and what created that one etc etc etc. i dont like thinking to the realms of infinity it hurts my brain especially as it cant be proved or disproved...