[Merged] ntl DTV & DVD Recording

[Geoff103]

Has anyone else figured out how, when on NTL digital cable TV, how to record a digital channel on DVD recorder (or VHS tape for that matter) while still being able to watch live another digital channel?

Is the only answer to have two STBs?

[russellelly]

Originally Posted by Geoff103

Has anyone else figured out how, when on NTL digital cable TV, how to record a digital channel on DVD recorder (or VHS tape for that matter) while still being able to watch live another digital channel?

Is the only answer to have two STBs?

Yep, 2 STBs is the only answer - Your STB has only one tuner. Perhaps another way would be to get a DTT box so you could watch a FTA channel whilst recording an ntl channel (or vice-versa)

[Geoff103]

I figured as much.

Hasn't any DVD Recorder or VHS Recorder manufacturer had the wit and foresight, yet, to include a DTT tuner instead (or as well) as an analogue one?

Surely, it can't be that difficult.

This is such a basic requirement (one we've got used to with analogue tv from the very first with VHS machines) that it ought to have happened by now.

[MikeyB]

Someone has made a DVD recorder, and a VCR with a built in DTT tuner, I'm sure of it, sure I saw it in T3 magazine... Wonder if I can find it... (runs off to look!)...

Dawoo VCR with built in freeview:
http://www.empiredirect.co.uk/produc...0&affiliateid=

Can't see anything about a DVD recorder with DTT, maybe I imagined it!

[Alanmelon]

Given that you can't even purchase a simple Pace stb which will operate on ntl's network, let alone one with a DVD Recorder, I can't see this happening for a while.

[Geoff103]

Originally Posted by Alanmelon

Given that you can't even purchase a simple Pace stb which will operate on ntl's network, let alone one with a DVD Recorder, I can't see this happening for a while.

It's all a bit pathetic, isn't it.

VHS manufacturers gave their recorders an analogue tuner from Day 1. DVD recorders should - given their digital nature - have been equipped with a DTT from the start.

[chambece]

Originally Posted by Geoff103

It's all a bit pathetic, isn't it.

VHS manufacturers gave their recorders an analogue tuner from Day 1. DVD recorders should - given their digital nature - have been equipped with a DTT from the start.

Unfortunatly, this is the way things work - You're right - (most) VHS recorders did get tuners analog tuners from day 1, although I'm sure that just like you can find video *players* you can find recorders that will just record from an AV source - I'm thinking for things like CCTV.

And the other thing is, although they had tuners in since day 1, when NICAM came out it'd probably take untill the majority of the country had NICAM TVs before most videos were made nicam by default...

the other thing is now how many videos can you get that record SVIDEO, or RGB? And how many people couldn't get DTT through their exsisting ariels or due to location, and would moan if it didn't come with a normal tuner?

[paulyoung666]

i have seen a dvd player with a freeview box built in but not a dvd recorder

[Geoff103]

Originally Posted by paulyoung666

i have seen a dvd player with a freeview box built in but not a dvd recorder

There doesn't seem much point to that!

There's a basic economic argument here:

1) VHS players are now commodity items with low margins in a nearly mature market. Little incentive for the main brands
2) DVD recorders are new with high prices and higher margins into an immature market.
3) Potential 'early adopters' are more likely to be digital tv users (whether by cable, satellite or terrestrial) than analogue users.
4) First to market with a recorder with digital tuner secures an immediate advantage.
5) Failing an internal digital tuner, why not 'bundle' the recorder with an add-on DTT set-top box? Though this is an imperfect solution since according to the Freeview Postcode checker, DTT is not available here (Farnham, Surrey)

Having defined the problem and found no solution, I WILL NOT purchase a DVD recorder with only an analogue internal tuner.

Don't forget the UK was one of the first countries to launch DTT, other countries have now launched but its not everywhere yet.
A company is not going to spend a lot of money developing a DVD recorder with built in DTT box, when the potential market is still small.
As the market develops it will become more attractive and I can see them being launched, if no broadcaster objects to near perfect recordings being available in a transportable form (i.e. one that can be lent to mates, perfectly copied etc).

[chambece]

Originally Posted by Geoff103

There doesn't seem much point to that!

There's a basic economic argument here:

1) VHS players are now commodity items with low margins in a nearly mature market. Little incentive for the main brands
2) DVD recorders are new with high prices and higher margins into an immature market.
3) Potential 'early adopters' are more likely to be digital tv users (whether by cable, satellite or terrestrial) than analogue users.
4) First to market with a recorder with digital tuner secures an immediate advantage.
5) Failing an internal digital tuner, why not 'bundle' the recorder with an add-on DTT set-top box? Though this is an imperfect solution since according to the Freeview Postcode checker, DTT is not available here (Farnham, Surrey)

Having defined the problem and found no solution, I WILL NOT purchase a DVD recorder with only an analogue internal tuner.

But that's it - early adopters will either have SKY, NTL, or freeview - or more than one - if people get thier DTV from sky or NTL, then a DTT decoder in the box will be no good - I don't even have an ariel plugged in! The only possible way to get something similar, is via the sky+ but I don't even think that has got two 'tuners', but then you have to have sky - so what's the point in the DTT? Even bundling a DTT box is not really gonna help if you already have DTV

Originally Posted by chambece

The only possible way to get something similar, is via the sky+ but I don't even think that has got two 'tuners', but then you have to have sky - so what's the point in the DTT?

The Sky + unit does indeed have two TV tuners. It needs the LNB replacing with one with at least two outputs as it needs two RF feeds.

[Geoff103]

Originally Posted by chambece

But that's it - early adopters will either have SKY, NTL, or freeview - or more than one - if people get thier DTV from sky or NTL, then a DTT decoder in the box will be no good

I agree, it's second-best solution but, while I have NTL cable, there's still an external terrestrial aerial outlet in my TV room and a DVD recorder with integral DTT tuner would - with appropriate cabling between various boxes and my Plasma screen allow recording one digital channel while watching another at the same time.

Does everyone who hooks up to cable, immediately have any external aerial removed? I doubt it.

So, I suppose I could look at a Freeview box - though DTT is currently not receivable in my part of Farnham!

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by chambece

Unfortunatly, this is the way things work - You're right - (most) VHS recorders did get tuners analog tuners from day 1, although I'm sure that just like you can find video *players* you can find recorders that will just record from an AV source - I'm thinking for things like CCTV.

And the other thing is, although they had tuners in since day 1, when NICAM came out it'd probably take untill the majority of the country had NICAM TVs before most videos were made nicam by default...

the other thing is now how many videos can you get that record SVIDEO, or RGB? And how many people couldn't get DTT through their exsisting ariels or due to location, and would moan if it didn't come with a normal tuner?

Post 1000 here goes...

When VHS was brought out there was only one flavour of transmission UHF. No DTT, CATV, SatTV so putting a tuner in was a no brainer, the same one could / would be used by all. Nobodies going to bother putting any alternative kind of tuner in a VHS these days they are made with pennies of profit margin now. Look at the spec on your average £60 player, Nicam stereo, SVHS play and NTSC playback, things that would have cost £400+ a few pre digital years ago.

Now there are four flavours of digital TV transmission, all requiring different hardware and their network providers marketing competing products (sky+ and similar products exist on the US cable networks).

For this to work you would need a modular decoder slot which you could put the relevant hardware into to enable you to decode your broadcast source. This would not really work for the cable providers as they bring their own hardware. It could work well for Sky and DTT (and DTT+ TopUp, but would require some opeing up of the CATV networks.

Personally I would have thought that HDD recording with a DVD archive function would be the way forward though.

Originally Posted by Geoff103

I agree, it's second-best solution but, while I have NTL cable, there's still an external terrestrial aerial outlet in my TV room and a DVD recorder with integral DTT tuner would - with appropriate cabling between various boxes and my Plasma screen allow recording one digital channel while watching another at the same time.

Does everyone who hooks up to cable, immediately have any external aerial removed? I doubt it.

So, I suppose I could look at a Freeview box - though DTT is currently not receivable in my part of Farnham!

And poor in my part of Hertford, as is analoge terrestrial, probably why there is a good takeup of cable and sky in the area so yes I still have a £250 areial on the roof, but the reception despite spending a fortune (when NTL said no service existied outside my house) is still pants and not worth recording. The pass through on the NTL cable does much the same trick (no Channel 5 vs poor reception of C5).

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Post 1000 here goes...

When VHS was brought out there was only one flavour of transmission UHF. No DTT, CATV, SatTV so putting a tuner in was a no brainer, the same one could / would be used by all. Nobodies going to bother putting any alternative kind of tuner in a VHS these days they are made with pennies of profit margin now. Look at the spec on your average £60 player, Nicam stereo, SVHS play and NTSC playback, things that would have cost £400+ a few pre digital years ago.

Now there are four flavours of digital TV transmission, all requiring different hardware and their network providers marketing competing products (sky+ and similar products exist on the US cable networks).

For this to work you would need a modular decoder slot which you could put the relevant hardware into to enable you to decode your broadcast source. This would not really work for the cable providers as they bring their own hardware. It could work well for Sky and DTT (and DTT+ TopUp, but would require some opeing up of the CATV networks.

Personally I would have thought that HDD recording with a DVD archive function would be the way forward though.



And poor in my part of Hertford, as is analoge terrestrial, probably why there is a good takeup of cable and sky in the area so yes I still have a £250 areial on the roof, but the reception despite spending a fortune (when NTL said no service existied outside my house) is still pants and not worth recording. The pass through on the NTL cable does much the same trick (no Channel 5 vs poor reception of C5).

You would need seperate demodulators (SKY- QPSK,DTT- COFDM) and then a Common Interface slot into which you slot the required descrambling module (into which you add the smartcard). Sky won't allow a CI module to be produced.