In Defense of the Marriage

[Russ]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Time and again, people in this thread have stated that there is no way (or at least all but the slimmest chance) that a child raised by a homosexual couple will turn out as "good" (for want of a better phrase) than those raised by a heterosexual couple. Now you've gone as far as to say that if this were common enough (and if the figures that 10% of people are gay that means that only about 10% of households would have homosexual parents, roughly speaking) that society would crumble.

What I fail to see are any specific examples about what is going to go wrong. Why is society going to crumble? All these dire predictions and warnings are vague to say the least. That does strike me as a rather fine example of paranoia in action.

So I can't give my opinion?

As my daughter grows up, she will be taught that a mother and a father create babies together. Infertility is rare enough for me to not find it neccessary to explain that until she's old enough to know for herself.

What I won't be telling her is that those little boys and girls with 2 mammies or daddies needed special treatment from doctors in order for them to be born.

Originally Posted by Russ D

So I can't give my opinion?

Of course.

Originally Posted by Russ D

As my daughter grows up, she will be taught that a mother and a father create babies together. Infertility is rare enough for me to not find it neccessary to explain that until she's old enough to know for herself.

What I won't be telling her is that those little boys and girls with 2 mammies or daddies needed special treatment from doctors in order for them to be born.

I hope you have plenty of straws in stock as you are certainly clutching at them badly here. Equating the issues of homosexuality to the issues of explaining infertility? That's some pretty bizarre reasoning.

And so, once again, you have failed to demonstrate any detrimental effect that this is going to have on those children raised on homosexual parents, nor the effect it would have on society as a whole. You seem very concerned about what you will and won`t explain to your children. Who are you protecting? You strongly give the impression is that the only people you are concerned about are those "poor" parents who are placed in the "awkward" position of having to face the realities of life.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

No one has provided any reason why we SHOULD allow homosexual "marriages."

We don`t need to, laws, by and large, exist to ostensibly to protect the citizens, so the onus is on you to demonstrate the harm it would cause and why it would need to be legislated against.

Again, you fail to demonstrate any detrimental effect these arrangements would have.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Russ D

So I can't give my opinion?

you sure can, but i think narrowmindedness come in to it as well.

Originally Posted by Russ D

As my daughter grows up, she will be taught that a mother and a father create babies together. Infertility is rare enough for me to not find it neccessary to explain that until she's old enough to know for herself.

what happened to 'letting the child know' how did that change ?

Originally Posted by Russ D

What I won't be telling her is that those little boys and girls with 2 mammies or daddies needed special treatment from doctors in order for them to be born.

or so your doing the classic 'ignore it because you dont think its natural and 'right' yes i see the fairness in that

Originally Posted by Jerrek

No one has provided any reason why we SHOULD allow homosexual "marriages."

i see nothing wrong with them, if it makes two people happy then why not, really you cannot justify your argument as to why it shouldnt be allowed, so to counter you come out with a comment like this.

i have explained what the involvment would be, and any potential hurdles that you may come across.

everyone has the right live how they want.

Originally Posted by Russ D

OK, go ahead, have it your way, let's have an entire generation of children brought up by homosexual parents (who, I believe will try to do a good job)
??

stop being childish russ now your just being that.

the argument i put forward is valid i support the notion of homosexual parents, but your twisting the very words i said, i never once mentioned that an 'entire' society would turn to homosexuality, this simply wont happen.

Originally Posted by Russ D

BUT once the whole thing goes belly up and society crumbles who are you going to blame then? The Bible bashers who stood by and let it happen??

this is borderline on extremeism, russ i guess you believe religion (christianity) is the savior, i have news for you, your wrong, society is already decreasing as a whole, one thing you have to live with is differing views, and diffarent lifestyles, and what is not harmful to anyone is acceptable.

[Russ]

I hope you have plenty of straws in stock as you are certainly clutching at them badly here. Equating the issues of homosexuality to the issues of explaining infertility? That's some pretty bizarre reasoning.

I'm not talking about the issues of homosexuality, I'm talking about homosexual couples who have children.

And so, once again, you have failed to demonstrate any detrimental effect that this is going to have on those children raised on homosexual parents, nor the effect it would have on society as a whole

My experience tells me the ideal scenario is for a child to have an active mother and father figure in their lives. Not 2 of either.

You seem very concerned about what you will and won`t explain to your children.

Too right, I want what I think is the best for her.

Who are you protecting?

My daughter.

You strongly give the impression is that the only people you are concerned about are those "poor" parents who are placed in the "awkward" position of having to face the realities of life.

No, I'm concerned for my daughter in case others feel it neccessary to tell her that such things are "normal". I'm not saying that thing which aren't normal are neccessarily 'bad', but I want her to know what is favourable.

NOTE: my definition of 'normal' - an event or circumstance which is shared by the majority.

And Kronas, don't you dare tell me my religious beliefs are wrong. I don't expect everyone to see the world the way I do but being confrontational enough to tell someone their religion is wrong is just the way to get people's back up. Have I EVER told you that your views on religion are wrong? Have I EVER said that to ANYONE?

I'm going to back out of this thread for a while before I do something I'll end up regretting.

Originally Posted by Russ D

NOTE: my definition of 'normal' - an event or circumstance which is shared by the majority.

I would compile a list of all the things you are going to have to avoid talking to her about, but I`m afraid I don`t have several years on my hands. The majority of people don`t drive Ferraris, better not talk to her about those. The majority of people don`t ride horses, so if she talks about getting a pony I suggest you sweep it under the carpet rather quickly. The problem I have is that you can define what you mean by the definition of "normal", but I suspect in practical terms it's going to have a much narrower definition than that.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

I would compile a list of all the things you are going to have to avoid talking to her about, but I`m afraid I don`t have several years on my hands. The majority of people don`t drive Ferraris, better not talk to her about those. The majority of people don`t ride horses, so if she talks about getting a pony I suggest you sweep it under the carpet rather quickly. The problem I have is that you can define what you mean by the definition of "normal", but I suspect in practical terms it's going to have a much narrower definition than that.

You see, we want what we think is best for our children. I'll be telling her what I think is right. When she's old enough she can turn around to me and tell me she disagrees, but until then, she'll get from her mother and I what we judge to be right.

[Bex]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Time and again, people in this thread have stated that there is no way (or at least all but the slimmest chance) that a child raised by a homosexual couple will turn out as "good" (for want of a better phrase) than those raised by a heterosexual couple. Now you've gone as far as to say that if this were common enough (and if the figures that 10% of people are gay that means that only about 10% of households would have homosexual parents, roughly speaking) that society would crumble.

What I fail to see are any specific examples about what is going to go wrong. Why is society going to crumble? All these dire predictions and warnings are vague to say the least. That does strike me as a rather fine example of paranoia in action.

dr w i would have to agree with you (gosh i seem to be making a habit of this today) i do not see why society would necessarily crumble...society is changing, it will always change...in the victorian era it was not good for a women to have independence and money of her own, now we live in a society where women are encouraged to have their own minds...this change seemed awful way back when, but now society has adapted....

yes there is the issue of homosexuals not being able to have children in the "normal" way...and some of you *claim* that these sort of children will be bought up scared and such like......but a child who has a mother and father who don't love each other, who sees hatred and violence between their parents will be just as scared, if not more so, than a child who grows up in a loving family in which their parents just happen to be the same gender

Originally Posted by Russ D

You see, we want what we think is best for our children. I'll be telling her what I think is right. When she's old enough she can turn around to me and tell me she disagrees, but until then, she'll get from her mother and I what we judge to be right.

Now you are equating normal with right, so somehow homsexual parents are wrong, as you've already said they are not normal. It brings us full circle quite nicely. Now explain what is wrong about it?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Now you are equating normal with right, so somehow homsexual parents are wrong, as you've already said they are not normal. It brings us full circle quite nicely. Now explain what is wrong about it?

Yeah, that's grown up of you, put words in my mouth.

I don't think gays should be able to get married. If they wish to live together or have relationships then that's up to them but marriage for gays is something I disagree with as I've always believed marriage should be about children. People may say in the animal world there's homosexual activity but you don't see them making babies and in any case, the majority of animals together are male/female. I want to make it clear I have nothing against gay people.

I will never teach any child of mine that gays are nasty, frightening, evil, etc or anything like that. My views are that parents should be male and female. From what I've seen, a strong family unit in that way works best. This is why I will always promote male/female parents.

I've added a few extra points there simply because if you're going to put words in my mouth, I'm going to make sure I've got all bases covered.

[Ramrod]

Originally Posted by dr wadd

Tell that to the ancient Greeks

I said majority not everybody.

Originally Posted by Russ D

I don't think gays should be able to get married. If they wish to live together or have relationships then that's up to them but marriage for gays is something I disagree with as I've always believed marriage should be about children.

If marriage should be about children, does that mean you don`t believe that a couple should get married when one of them is sterile? Fertility treatments can do wonders these days but not for every couple. Would you expect them to divorce, or not have married in the first place? Would it perhaps be acceptable if they didn`t find out this fact until after they got married? At least then they would have entered it with the intention of having children. There are many couples who do not want to ever have children? Would you prevent these people marrying as well?

If you are going to base, at least to a rather large degree, the importance of marriage on a criteria as fundamental as having children then you are also ruling out a large number of heterosexual couples as well. I posed all those questions above, but I`m sure they can all be taken as rhetorical as I`m fairly certain you would not object to couples in the scenarios I've described getting married. Therefore, there must be something more specific about your objections.

[Russ]

OK, you got me, fertility treatment beats me, maybe I'm wrong.

[Jerrek]

So far anyone has yet to show any need and reason for homosexual marriages. We're not preventing homosexuals from having relationships, we just want to preserve the traditional institution of marriage, WHICH WAS CREATED BY HETEROSEXUALS.

And by protecting marriage, we protect the traditional family unit--a cornerstone of society-- and also the children.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

So far anyone has yet to show any need and reason for homosexual marriages. We're not preventing homosexuals from having relationships, we just want to preserve the traditional institution of marriage, WHICH WAS CREATED BY HETEROSEXUALS.

Show me the *need* for heterosexual marriage. A couple of rings and a bit of pomp and ceremony confer no additional degree of commitment upon a relationship, if it did, divorce rates wouldn`t be as high as they are.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

And by protecting marriage, we protect the traditional family unit--a cornerstone of society-- and also the children.

Once again we have the dire warnings. Once again they are totally vague with no specific claims to back them up.