US style british citizenship a positive step ?

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Once again, I'm puzzled. You mean to say you guys never sing your national anthem? What about in school?

In the United States, we sang the national anthem every day in class. Fridays, when we had assembly, we would all stand while the Bible was being read, and then two flags are carried in by seniors. One on the left, and one on the right of the assembly hall. One was the Flag of the United States and one was the flag of the State I was in (Texas). Once they reach the front, they face the audiance, and hold the flag pole at a 45 degree angle. We would then stand on attention, with your hand on your heart, and pledge allegiance, and then sing the anthem, all of it.

During the week, we just pledged allegiance and sang the anthem in class. There was no flags being carried in, although each classroom has a flag or two.

Jerrek, I mean this with the greatest of respect, can you not realise that other countries don't always do things the American way? We have our own ways of doing things!

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Russ D

Jerrek, I mean this with the greatest of respect, can you not realise that other countries don't always do things the American way? We have our own ways of doing things!

I heard a very good explaination of this on the radio some months ago.

If you are brought up to believe your way is the best way, you find it difficult to understand why other people don't also see how wonderful your way is.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Don't you just love showing you're from Great Britain? Don't you just like experessing yourself?

Not in the slightest, we have one of the worst national anthems in the world, a truly terrible piece of music.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Now tell me, would be proud singing the European Union anthem, or the British anthem?

At least Ode to Joy is a decent piece of music.

[Stu038]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

We've been brought up to dislike our country and have let the National Front take over flag waving until it became socially unacceptable. Onlyin the last 4 years or so since the Football and Rugby world cups has flag flying / waving been deemed more acceptable.

Not so sure about being brought up to dislike it, IMHO its more a case that we've allowed ourselves to fall foul of a few things and to get side tracked about it.

For a couple of generations after WW2 and the Nazis, many Germans felt they had to be ashamed to be German because of what some of their countrymen did. Too many liberals have shouted and been heeded that we also should be ashamed of being British because we once had an empire and did some pretty horrible things.

People didn't want to offend the waves of Asian and Jamaican immigrants entering the country despite the fact that many of them were already more patriotic than some of the natives.

A lot of the issues with unionism in the 70's were wrongly put across as nationalism, in that the unions where fighting for a better Britain when really what they were fighting for was power and high profiles for their leadership. That their membership almost benefited as well was IMO a bit of a bonus on the side.

The History syllabus in schools changed a lot during the last 30 years, kids were no longer taught about Great Britain and its peoples achievements.

Brits generally are more reserved than our cousin's across the pond and I think that also has had its impact with parents declining to sing the countries praises and the only influence's about being negative, many have forgotten what being British is all about.

All great civilisations have peaks and troughs ours has been at a low for some time now perhaps thanks to it being politically correct again to fly the flag we can start to climb again.

To answer the thread title, yes!!! bloody good idea it should be compulsory for all as they come of age. No one should automatically become a citizen just because they were born and raised in ignorance in any country, why should people be allowed to vote on the future governance of a country when they don't know about both the good and bad of its history, its traditions, its values and its diverse peoples.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Xaccers

No, we don't brainwash our kids into thinking our country is the best.
Maybe we should, perhaps being British we wouldn't come across as arrogant as americans do with that view.

i agree whilst i 'love' this country and would protect it, i know it has its faults no country is perfect and the US portrays itself as an 'almighty peacekeeping we are the best country in the world' i would call that arrogance.

some people will say its the american way.........

Originally Posted by Nugget

I've lived here all of my life, and I don't think that I could sing the National Anthem

same here.........

[Jerrek]

Why would I need to express to everyone else that I am proud of being British?
I know I'm proud to be British, what's it to anyone else?

If you can't find a need, then you wouldn't understand. It is a personal thing. You may not like it or approve, but respect the rights of others to be proud AND express it. I will likewise respect your right to hide your national identity.

So you'd have no problem if america had stood by and let europe become a Nazi superpower?
Or even under control of the Kaiser?

I was talking in general, and I believe it was quite clear. There are always exceptions, and those tend to come around a couple of times a century. So my question still stands. You haven't answered it.

A flag is just a flag, a song is just a song (a kiss is just a kiss)

Perhaps to a bacterium, but the human mind has the ability to form memories and associations. That is why something can have more meaning to others than to one person. And to me, a flag, song, and kiss can carry a whole lot more than just the act.


And Xaccers, you STILL haven't answered my two questions. How is singing and reciting a pledge brainwashing?

Jerrek, I mean this with the greatest of respect, can you not realise that other countries don't always do things the American way? We have our own ways of doing things!

So Russ, you're saying that it is only Americans that do these things? Ridiculous. Its been going on for centuries. It is done in Canada, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, China, Malaysia, South Africa, etc. It is hardly an American thing, but if you want to disagree, go ahead. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I heard a very good explaination of this on the radio some months ago.

If you are brought up to believe your way is the best way, you find it difficult to understand why other people don't also see how wonderful your way is.

I don't believe everything I hear on the radio, and I do not believe this is relevant to the discussion at hand.

This isn't about the best way. It is about expressing who you are. It is a personal opinion. It just so happens Americans and Canadians and the rest of the world except Europe seems to be more proud of their national heritage than you guys, and Europeans seem to have a major fit with that. For some reason.

Too many liberals have shouted and been heeded that we also should be ashamed of being British because we once had an empire and did some pretty horrible things.

Join the club. So were teh Spanish, Germans, Russians, Chinese, Americans, Canadians, etc. Everyone has some skeletons in their closet. It doesn't, however, change the fact that you may have made significant achievements.

People didn't want to offend the waves of Asian and Jamaican immigrants entering the country despite the fact that many of them were already more patriotic than some of the natives.

I couldn't give a damn if they feel offended. They can leave.

The History syllabus in schools changed a lot during the last 30 years, kids were no longer taught about Great Britain and its peoples achievements.

That is a shame. Its quite different here. We are taught of our achievements, AND, we are taught about the achievements of other nations, including Great Britain.

i know it has its faults no country is perfect and the US portrays itself as an 'almighty peacekeeping we are the best country in the world' i would call that arrogance.

But if France is doing it, it is OK.

[Mark W]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I couldn't give a damn if they feel offended. They can leave.

ummm.... thats a very tolerant attitude you have - imagine that sort of attitude on a national level, and you might get some idea why north america seems to put alot of peoples backs up...... .

That is a shame. Its quite different here. We are taught of our achievements, AND, we are taught about the achievements of other nations, including Great Britain.

that could be your problem right there - if all you learn is how great your cournty is/was, that will naturally lead to a national feeling of arrogance.... ALOT more can be learned of your nations failings....and how to make sure they dont happen again...

But if France is doing it, it is OK.

ummm, France is a peacekeeping nation - you seen them wage wars on anyone for the alleged benefit of the planet?, nope. see, cos unlike the USA thay DONT see themselves as the best country in the world, and have no massive chip on their shoulder that needs feeding all the time....

[Jerrek]

ummm.... thats a very tolerant attitude you have - imagine that sort of attitude on a national level, and you might get some idea why north america seems to put alot of peoples backs up...... .

That attitude is directed at immigrants who "might be offended," not my fellow citizens.

that could be your problem right there - if all you learn is how great your cournty is/was, that will naturally lead to a national feeling of arrogance.... ALOT more can be learned of your nations failings....and how to make sure they dont happen again...

We learn both. But people ignore history, hence liberals exist. And if you're going to tell me not to teach my country the greatness of their own country, then I'm not going to listen to you and just feel sorry. I do have a sense of national pride.

ummm, France is a peacekeeping nation - you seen them wage wars on anyone for the alleged benefit of the planet?, nope.

Have you heard of Ivory Coast?

And if France is such a great peacekeeping nation, why the hell is the United States keeping peace in Eastern Europe? Why did you need the United States to fix two world wars, and recently Serbia?

see, cos unlike the USA thay DONT see themselves as the best country in the world,

You've apparently never been to France.

[Xaccers]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

I was talking in general, and I believe it was quite clear. There are always exceptions, and those tend to come around a couple of times a century. So my question still stands. You haven't answered it.

Lets see, WW1, WW2, Falklands, Suez to name more than a couple of situations where America has turned it's back on it's allies.

If some nations have the ability to help the world then it would be dishonourable not too. This does not mean ignoring problems at home, infact, if you think about it, america could ask other countries to help with it's own problems. I know it's easy for you to forget, but America is part of the world, so included in the better world that could be built.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Perhaps to a bacterium, but the human mind has the ability to form memories and associations. That is why something can have more meaning to others than to one person. And to me, a flag, song, and kiss can carry a whole lot more than just the act.

*JOY* I'm a bacterium now.

Originally Posted by Jerrek

And Xaccers, you STILL haven't answered my two questions. How is singing and reciting a pledge brainwashing?

Read my post about repeating mantras

[Mark W]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

That attitude is directed at immigrants who "might be offended," not my fellow citizens.

i thought north amarica was 'the land of the free' - free of bigotry, oppression and the like?.... so is it a case of we're all equal, but, we're more equal than immigrants?...... all the more ironic as you were an immigrant yourself wernt you??

We learn both. But people ignore history, hence liberals exist. And if you're going to tell me not to teach my country the greatness of their own country, then I'm not going to listen to you and just feel sorry. I do have a sense of national pride.

i am quietly proud of my country - like others in this thread - but i dont feel the need to scream it at the top of my lungs tho - british understatement perhaps?
i would however deliberatly keep quiet if my country was the most hated on the planet, whilst i figured out why that was.....

Have you heard of Ivory Coast?

And if France is such a great peacekeeping nation, why the hell is the United States keeping peace in Eastern Europe? Why did you need the United States to fix two world wars, and recently Serbia?[

ahhhhh..... THAT old chestnut. the US of A saving us out of the goodness of their own heart....and nothing, oddly enough, to do with realising that they would be deep in the mire if europe fell.
i love how yanks extol how the US is in so many countries keeping the peace - yet neglect to mention the US had either invaded that country or in some way contributed to its political collapse in the first place!!

You've apparently never been to France.

ummmm...only lived there for 7 years......

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Well, Jerrek should know it as it's his national anthem too

God save our gracious Queen,[snip]

You missed out:

"God grant that Marshall Wade
"With thy almighty aid,
"Victory bring.
"May he sedition hush,
"And like a torrent rush
"Rebellious Scots to crush!
"God save the Queen"

(Just to annoy all the Scots )

Originally Posted by Jerrek

Who said it is compulsory? If you don't want to say the pledge, you don't hve to. If you don't want to sing the national anthem, you don't have to.

If you don't, people may consider you to be "unpatriotic"

There again (and I'm trying to remember where I read this) I recall a story of a British Teacher (female IIRC) who went to teach in the who was told off by the Headmaster for not standing up during the Pledge of Alliegence or the singing of the Star Spangled Banner.

Her response was (quite reasonably) that it wasn't her Pledge or Anthem and, as such, she didn't feel they should stand up for it, however the Headmaster insisted.

So the next day after the singing, she brought out a cassette recorder and stood to attention whilst "God Save the Queen" played.

After that she was excused attending assemblies!

Originally Posted by Xaccers

(In response to Russ) If you are brought up to believe your way is the best way, you find it difficult to understand why other people don't also see how wonderful your way is.

There are *ALL SORTS* of things I could say here...!!!

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Jerrek

So Russ, you're saying that it is only Americans that do these things? Ridiculous. Its been going on for centuries. It is done in Canada, Mexico, Australia, New Zealand, China, Malaysia, South Africa, etc. It is hardly an American thing, but if you want to disagree, go ahead. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

You've dodged the question. I'm not assuming America is the only country to do that. I'm asking why it is Americans always seem to assume everything is done around the world the same way as it's done in the States.

[Jerrek]

i thought north amarica was 'the land of the free' - free of bigotry, oppression and the like?.... so is it a case of we're all equal, but, we're more equal than immigrants?...... all the more ironic as you were an immigrant yourself wernt you??

I do not see how this relates to me telling immigrants to leave if they get offended in my country by my customs.

the US of A saving us out of the goodness of their own heart....

I didn't say that, did I? You need to really learn to read.

ummmm...only lived there for 7 years......

Oh damn, and I sensed their superiority complex within 5 minutes of going through customs.



Anyways, this discussion is going nowhere. My point is, I am proud of who I am, and I do not feel a need to hide it or stick it under a rock. I sing my anthem with pride, and my kids will sing it each day in school. I have pledged allegiance, and my kids will do the same thing. (And don't come back with the brainwashing crap, because you still haven't explained how it is considered brainwashing.) You may disagree, but I doubt the entire of the UK would feel the need to hide their heritage. I will respect your right to hide it, if you respect my right NOT to hide it.