Vote - Will Tony Blair be the Prime Minister in a months time?

[Nor]

Originally Posted by downquark1

no he didn't:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/mid...st/3323633.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3160602.stm

We're not talking about what people think now though. We're talking about what people thought back then. Then, even Blix was of the opinion that there were WMD. We've all adjusted our opinion since. But to say Blair lied because we haven't found WMD is wrong. If the intelligence said it was there then he was following duff intelligence, he wasn't lying.

[Julian]

Originally Posted by Nor

We're not talking about what people think now though. We're talking about what people thought back then. Then, even Blix was of the opinion that there were WMD. We've all adjusted our opinion since. But to say Blair lied because we haven't found WMD is wrong. If the intelligence said it was there then he was following duff intelligence, he wasn't lying.

I hear what you are saying Nor. Trouble is if the intelligence was that good we would have found WMD by now.

We are talking about invading a country here.... wouldn't you have expected him to have knowledge of the whereabouts of these WMD before going in? That would be good intelligence information and worthy of action.

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Nor

If the intelligence said it was there then he was following duff intelligence, he wasn't lying.

that is correct, the hutton report stated that it was the intelligence agencies that drew the reports up, that said iraq/saddam had WMD.

the government is not to blame the intelligence agencies are.......

Originally Posted by Julian

We are talking about invading a country here.... wouldn't you have expected him to have knowledge of the whereabouts of these WMD before going in? That would be good intelligence information and worthy of action.

he trusted the intelligence services on the information they gave to him, now we dont know what or how much information was given, but it was enough to prompt blair to join the invasion.

yes he should have looked in to the intelligence but wouldnt you trust your own agencies ?

Originally Posted by Nor

This issue was about the BBC saying the government lied about inclusions in the dossier.

Yes, because the government ringfenced Hutton so completely that he could *not* consider anything outside the remit they gave him.

what you seem to be saying is that its apparantly okay for the BBC to lie and sex up its own stories because deep down what they are saying is right, that the government are liars. Hardly impartial journalism is it to lie yourself to try and prove the government are liars.

I most definitely am *NOT* saying anything of the sort.

I have written elsewhere in these forums about "journalistic integrity" and I do *NOT* and *WILL NOT* in any way, shape or form, support news media "sexing up" their own stories any more than I support the government doing it.

The BBC are the only news organisation who govern themselves, but despite it being obvious that they lied and sexed up their own story people still say its a whitewash and believe what they say, I guess because it confirms their own prejudices.

The BBC made mistakes, I don't deny it. But the government effectively fixed the result of the enquiry from the start and I have watched a lot of the news coverage in the past couple of days which has had people, *including* government supporters, utterly *astonished* to see just how one-sided the Hutton report finally was.

But, being objective, I cannot see where he has lied to us. I'm coming round to the realisation that there are no WMD in Iraq. But... the intelligence said there was. The US intel, the British intel, the French intel, the German intel all thought there was WMD and WMD programs in Iraq. Blix thought there was WMD in Iraq.

Blix thought nothing of the sort! The US had to retract the claim that Saddam had been trying to get nuclear material from Africa, information that they got from *our* intelligence service!

Blair told us that Saddam had WMDs ready to deploy within 45 minutes, but it was based AIUI on a *single source* (something they criticised Gilligan and the BBC for!), yet he "sold" the war to Parliament on that basis.

Hutton glossed over this with the ridiculous assertion that there may have been a "subconcious" desire for Blair to hear what he wanted from the intelligence services, which is utterly nonsensical IMO and certainly not an excuse to start a war! Which, whilst it may not be a lie of "commission" was certainly a lie of "omission".

Finally Blair claimed (and Hutton accepted) that there was no deliberate plan or intent to leak Dr Kelly's name, but frankly, given the information they provided and what they told the papers (if you guess the name, we'll confirm it) it was *inevitable* that someone would come up with Kelly's name and he would be "outed". I *cannot* accept that this was simply accidental.

Saddam insisted he destroyed his stockpiles and programs but wouldn't show UNSCOM where he destroyed it or any evidence that he had destroyed it. He broke 16 our of 17 UN chapter 7 resolutions over 12 years, so I think its a fair assessment that Iraq had WMD programs.

Rubbish. There's no logical conclusion that can be drawn from this complete *lack* of evidence!

[Xaccers]

Did Michael Howard actually accuse TB or lying?
From what I heard he just asked TB to clarify his ever changing statment of facts

[Nor]

Originally Posted by Graham

Rubbish. There's no logical conclusion that can be drawn from this complete *lack* of evidence!

I'm not getting into a quote war with you. But its not rubbish. As Kay said it seems Saddam wanted everyone to think he had WMD. He refused to provide the evidence showing their destruction. He continued to try to develop WMD programs since the late 90's, the only problem being he was being conned by his scientists who took the money and apparantly didn't do anything. He broke 16 of the 17 resolutions over 12 years, many of which were chapter 7. All the intelligence services said there was WMD there, Blix DID say there was lots of WMD unnaccounted for and kept asking Iraq to show evidence of their destruction which they didn't.

Without the benefit of hindsight it is not rubbish to believe that it was a fair assessment they had WMD. What you were wanting was for Tony Blair to ignore his intelligence advisors telling him Iraq posed a WMD threat.

Originally Posted by Nor

I'm not getting into a quote war with you. But its not rubbish. As Kay said it seems Saddam wanted everyone to think he had WMD. He refused to provide the evidence showing their destruction. He continued to try to develop WMD programs since the late 90's, the only problem being he was being conned by his scientists who took the money and apparantly didn't do anything. He broke 16 of the 17 resolutions over 12 years, many of which were chapter 7. All the intelligence services said there was WMD there, Blix DID say there was lots of WMD unnaccounted for and kept asking Iraq to show evidence of their destruction which they didn't.

Without the benefit of hindsight it is not rubbish to believe that it was a fair assessment they had WMD. What you were wanting was for Tony Blair to ignore his intelligence advisors telling him Iraq posed a WMD threat.

Hear,hear.

I would rep you but I can't as I've already repped you today.stupid system.

Originally Posted by Nor

I'm not getting into a quote war with you. But its not rubbish. As Kay said it seems Saddam wanted everyone to think he had WMD. He refused to provide the evidence showing their destruction.

Which just shows that, whatever else you may say about him, he was an astute political operator. He managed to keep the UN dancing around for ten years on this matter.

It was only when Bush decided that, no matter *what* the facts were, he was going to invade anyway that Saddam's strategy went wrong.

The fact is, though, that the justification for war was based on (let's be charitable) "faulty intelligence".

Without the benefit of hindsight it is not rubbish to believe that it was a fair assessment they had WMD.

You can believe what you want, however I prefer to rely on insignificant little things like *facts* to provide a good reason to go to war.

What you were wanting was for Tony Blair to ignore his intelligence advisors telling him Iraq posed a WMD threat.

Thank you for telling me what I wanted...

Except that I wanted no such thing. I wanted him to base his decision to go to war on *facts* and *truth* rather than dubious assessments and dodgy dossiers.

[Nor]

It is a fact that he broke 16 UN resolutions, many of which are chapter 7. It is a fact that he broke the terms of his 1991 ceasefire agreement. It is a fact that he murdered hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of his own people and some using WMD (the US's reason for going to war, not Tony's)

Originally Posted by Nor

It is a fact that he broke 16 UN resolutions, many of which are chapter 7. It is a fact that he broke the terms of his 1991 ceasefire agreement. It is a fact that he murdered hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of his own people and some using WMD (the US's reason for going to war, not Tony's)

It is a fact that Israel has repeatedly broken UN resolutions, breached international law, engaged in what can only be described as state sponsored terorism and has murdered many innocents. Yet they're the "good guys".

Ah, the sweet smell of hypocrisy...

[Julian]

Question: Which country alone in the Middle East has nuclear weapons?
Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East refuses to sign the nuclear non-proliferation treaty and bars international inspections?
Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East seized the sovereign territory of other nations by military force and continues to occupy it in defiance of United Nations Security Council resolutions?
Answer: Israel.

Q: Which country in the Middle East routinely violates the international borders of another sovereign state with warplanes and artillery and naval gunfire?
Answer: Israel.

Q: What American ally in the Middle East has for years sent assassins into other countries to kill its political enemies (a practice sometimes called exporting terrorism)?
Answer: Israel.

Q: In which country in the Middle East have high-ranking military officers admitted publicly that unarmed prisoners of war were executed?
Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to prosecute its soldiers who have acknowledged executing prisoners of war?
Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East created 762,000 refugees and refuses to allow them to return to their homes, farms and businesses?
Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East refuses to pay compensation to people whose land, bank accounts and businesses it confiscated?
Answer: Israel.

Q: In what country in the MiddleEast was a high-ranking United Nations diplomat assassinated?
Answer: Israel.

Q: In what country in the Middle East did theman who ordered the assassination of a high-ranking U.N. diplomat become prime minister?
Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East blew up an American diplomatic facility in Egypt and attacked a U.S. ship, the USS Liberty, in international waters, killing 34 and wounding 171 American sailors?
Answer: Israel.

Q: What country in the Middle East employed a spy, Jonathan Pollard, to steal classified documents and then gave some of them to the Soviet Union?
Answer: Israel.

Q: What country at first denied any official connection to Pollard, then voted to make him a citizen and has continuously demanded that the American president grant Pollard a full pardon?
Answer: Israel.

Q. What Middle East country allows American Jewish murderers to flee to its country to escape punishment in the United States and refuses to extradite them once in their custody?
Answer: Israel

Q. What Middle East country preaches against hate yet builds a shrine and a memorial for a murderer who killed 29 Palestinians while they prayed in their Mosque?
Answer: Israel

Q: What country on Planet Earth has the second most powerful lobby in the United States, according to a recent Fortune magazine survey of Washington insiders?
Answer: Israel.

Q. Which country in the Middle East deliberately targeted a U.N. Refugee Camp in Qana, Lebanon and killed 103 innocent men, women, and especially children?
Answer: Israel

Q: Which country in the Middle East is in defiance of 69 United Nations Security Council resolutions and has been protected from 29 more by U.S. vetoes?
Answer: Israel.

Q. Which country in the Middle East receives more than one-thind of all U.S. aid yet is the 16th richest country in the world?
Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East receives U.S. weapons for free and then sells the technology to the Republic of China even at the objections of the U.S.?
Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely insults the American people by having its Prime Minister address the United States Congress and lecturing them like children on why they have no right to reduce foreign aid?
Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East had its Prime Minister announce to his staff not to worry about what the United States says because " We control America?"
Answer: Israel

Q. What country in the Middle East was cited by Amnesty International for demolishing more than 4000 innocent Palestinian homes as a means of ethnic cleansing.
Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East has just recently used a weapon of mass destruction, a one-ton smart bomb, dropping it in the center of a highly populated area killing 15 civilians including 9 children?
Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East routinely kills young Palestinian children for no reason other than throwing stones at armored vehichles, bulldozers, or tanks?
Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East signed the Oslo Accords promising to halt any new Jewish Settlement construction, but instead, has built more than 270 new settlements since the signing?
Answer: Israel

Q. Which country in the Middle East has assassinated more than 100 political officials of its opponent in the last 2 years while killing hundreds of civilians in the process, including dozens of children?
Answer: Israel

Q.. Which country in the Middle East regularly violates the Geneva Convention by imposing collective punishment on entire towns, villages, and camps, for the acts of a few, and even goes as far as demolishing entire villages while people are still in their homes?
Answer: Israel

Q: What country in the Middle East did the United States attack because of fear that it may be a threat to us and to our allies?
Answer: Iraq

[Nor]

Originally Posted by Graham

It is a fact that Israel has repeatedly broken UN resolutions, breached international law, engaged in what can only be described as state sponsored terorism and has murdered many innocents. Yet they're the "good guys".

Ah, the sweet smell of hypocrisy...

They are not the good guys in my mind. Just because I felt Iraq should be tackled because of their contravention of UN resolutions doesn't mean I don't want Israel to be tackled aswell. There is no hypocrisy from me. The UN resolutions relating to Israel happen to be chapter 6 ones though, which are guidelines and not enforceable. There will be no peace until Israel is dealt with though and thats why its so important the Israel problem is given top priority in ours and americas foreign policy.