Brexit (Old)

[Mr K]

It's been over 2 years since the referendum, things change, they always do. We wouldn't have General Elections if they didn't. There has been a shift in public opinion, not large, but enough to make a difference. Why are the Brexiteers so scared of another vote ? Not on Brexit, but on what type of deal/no deal the politicians inflict on is? It could mean wildly different things and affect us for generations, unlike general elections where we vote again in another few years.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's been over 2 years since the referendum, things change, they always do. We wouldn't have General Elections if they didn't. There has been a shift in public opinion, not large, but enough to make a difference. Why are the Brexiteers so scared of another vote ? Not on Brexit, but on what type of deal/no deal the politicians inflict on is? It could mean wildly different things and affect us for generations, unlike general elections where we vote again in another few years.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ


over 60,000 now

[Carth]

I must confess that I'm struggling to understand this idea of having a 'peoples vote' on which type of Brexit deal the Government eventually manages to get us.

Does this mean the Government can actually agree 3 or 4 different leaving scenarios all accepted by the 27 EU Countries and then we pick which one to take?

Alternatively, does it mean that the EU throw 3 or 4 deals at us (none of which are attractive) and we choose the best of a bad bunch?

Seems to me that either way just creates more excuses for divisive unrest because the losing 3 out of 4 will organise more protest marches, petitions, accusations etc etc.

You can't win them all . . . there are winners and losers, always have been. If you win that's great, if you lose you try harder next time.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's been over 2 years since the referendum, things change, they always do. We wouldn't have General Elections if they didn't. There has been a shift in public opinion, not large, but enough to make a difference. Why are the Brexiteers so scared of another vote ? Not on Brexit, but on what type of deal/no deal the politicians inflict on is? It could mean wildly different things and affect us for generations, unlike general elections where we vote again in another few years.

I would be daft if I didn’t take your point about Brexiteers being scared of another vote. Had it been the other way round, the clamour would have been just the same.

The UK politicians have shown themselves to be utterly useless and one would have to cast a sympathetic eye to the argument that remaining in the EU would give our politicians the least to get wrong. What a disgraceful state of affairs.

Nevertheless, at least from a purist perspective, the EU is an awful institution and we’d be well rid of them - if we could get there.

A very difficult situation indeed.





---------- Post added at 10:58 ---------- Previous post was at 10:55 ----------

Originally Posted by Carth

I must confess that I'm struggling to understand this idea of having a 'peoples vote' on which type of Brexit deal the Government eventually manages to get us.

Does this mean the Government can actually agree 3 or 4 different leaving scenarios all accepted by the 27 EU Countries and then we pick which one to take?

Alternatively, does it mean that the EU throw 3 or 4 deals at us (none of which are attractive) and we choose the best of a bad bunch?

Seems to me that either way just creates more excuses for divisive unrest because the losing 3 out of 4 will organise more protest marches, petitions, accusations etc etc.

You can't win them all . . . there are winners and losers, always have been. If you win that's great, if you lose you try harder next time.

Excellent points.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ


over 60,000 now

Still only 6.3% of this one at 995,770

Originally Posted by Angua

Still only 6.3% of this one at 995,770

And that 995,770 is less than 6% of 17.4 Million who voted to leave the EU.

This comparing of numbers all the time is growing tiresome - nothing the Remainer protesters puts up will ever beat the actual vote, the vote that democratically decided we are leaving the EU.

---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's been over 2 years since the referendum, things change, they always do. We wouldn't have General Elections if they didn't. There has been a shift in public opinion, not large, but enough to make a difference. Why are the Brexiteers so scared of another vote ? Not on Brexit, but on what type of deal/no deal the politicians inflict on is? It could mean wildly different things and affect us for generations, unlike general elections where we vote again in another few years.

This is nonsense - there has been no change and more crucially, you have no evidence to back this up with, where as two votes have taken place over 2 years. The EU Referendum and the Snap Election that took place a year after.

Both sets of Data from these votes, went for Brexit. 80% of the Electorate in the Snap Election went for parties who had a manifesto on leaving the EU. One other main party, the Liberal Democrats, went on a platform of wanting another referendum - they gained little seats. If the UK seriously wanted another Referendum, they would have voted Liberal Democrats, en masse, it never happened because the UK does not want a second vote.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Mr K

It's been over 2 years since the referendum, things change, they always do. We wouldn't have General Elections if they didn't. There has been a shift in public opinion, not large, but enough to make a difference. Why are the Brexiteers so scared of another vote ? Not on Brexit, but on what type of deal/no deal the politicians inflict on is? It could mean wildly different things and affect us for generations, unlike general elections where we vote again in another few years.

There was a referendum and then there was a general election, in both cases the electorate voted to leave the EU.

The government had a mandate to deliver Brexit in both cases.

At the next general election a party may stand on a ticket to rejoin the EU, in which case you can vote for them then

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Mick

And that 995,770 is less than 6% of 17.4 Million who voted to leave the EU.

This comparing of numbers all the time is growing tiresome - nothing the Remainer protesters puts up will ever beat the actual vote, the vote that democratically decided we are leaving the EU.

---------- Post added at 11:51 ---------- Previous post was at 11:42 ----------



This is nonsense - there has been no change and more crucially, you have no evidence to back this up with, where as two votes have taken place over 2 years. The EU Referendum and the Snap Election that took place a year after.

Both sets of Data from these votes, went for Brexit. 80% of the Electorate in the Snap Election went for parties who had a manifesto on leaving the EU. One other main party, the Liberal Democrats, went on a platform of wanting another referendum - they gained little seats. If the UK seriously wanted another Referendum, they would have voted Liberal Democrats, en masse, it never happened because the UK does not want a second vote.

You do realise this is a petition to have a final say on what deal we have for Brexit. Not a rescind Brexit vote.

Surely it is better to have a majority agreement on such a permanent change, than a minority one? At least then the 49 million who did not vote positively for Brexit get a say, even if that does not please the dictators.

Otherwise we would have left the EU soon after triggering A50, rather than the dithering and movable red lines we have had.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Angua

You do realise this is a petition to have a final say on what deal we have for Brexit. Not a rescind Brexit vote.
.

It’s a pointless vote then.

A) accept the deal

B) don’t accept the deal, and leave with no deal.

There is no third option.

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by Angua

You do realise this is a petition to have a final say on what deal we have for Brexit. Not a rescind Brexit vote.

And what is the point in that? It would by implication mean a binary choice which remainers love so much.

Accept
Reject

If rejected then we would leave with no deal, I have no problem with that but I'm sure the majority of remainers do.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by pip08456

And what is the point in that? It would by implication mean a binary choice which remainers love so much.

Accept
Reject

If rejected then we would leave with no deal, I have no problem with that but I'm sure the majority of remainers do.

Why not a more complex choice once the options are known.

Fed up of politicians assuming people are stupid and somehow incapable of weighing up the choices given. Yet I should not be surprised given how little politicians actually listen to the voters.

[pip08456]

Do you really expect more that one deal to be on the table?

How can you make it more complex? There can only be 2 choices, accept or reject anything else would be a rerun of the referendum which is exactly what the "Peoples Vote" is.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Do you really expect more that one deal to be on the table?

How can you make it more complex? There can only be 2 choices, accept or reject anything else would be a rerun of the referendum which is exactly what the "Peoples Vote" is.

Why would any Government grant a second vote to the very people who have repeatedly claimed they did not know what they voted for the first time.


https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ

over 63,000 now

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Angua

Why not a more complex choice once the options are known.

Fed up of politicians assuming people are stupid and somehow incapable of weighing up the choices given. Yet I should not be surprised given how little politicians actually listen to the voters.

You completely miss the reality of the situation.

Theresa May is out there trying to get a Brexit that is best for Britain. The EU has its red lines, as do we. Eventually, we will get to a position that both sides can accept.

At that point, we have a choice between accepting what the EU is prepared to agree and a hard Brexit. That is all there is. If we then stupidly put other options to the people, this carries with it the obvious problem that the EU will already have gone as far as they are prepared to go. The result of a further UK referendum will not be of any interest to them.

The other half-way measures that many remainers seem to prefer will not deliver what the voting electorate have said they wanted. For example, remaining in the customs union prevents us from forging our own trade deals, which was the thing that really appealed and makes Brexit a good financial option. All the half-way houses have problems attached to them which would not be sensible to contemplate because they put us in a worse position than we are in now.

Corbyn's apparent love for remaining in the customs union betrays how out of touch he is and how confused he is on the whole subject. Unfortunately, a section of the public believes that he knows what he's doing and really believe that remaining in the customs union is better than pulling out of it. Crazy!

[Angua]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Why would any Government grant a second vote to the very people who have repeatedly claimed they did not know what they voted for the first time.


https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ

over 63,000 now

Final Say, Over 999,000 now.