Brexit (Old)

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by pip08456

The way we leave? I'm sorry but I voted to leave in it's entirety, no half in or out.

Any future deals will be up to the EU and our own negotiating team. Deals can be done but on our terms not theirs.

Deals can't be done on our terms and not theirs. Deals can only be done on mutually agreed terms.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by djfunkdup

Yes because they are challenging and trying to overturn democracy and that is insulting to those of us who choose to leave !! Brexit is happening whether they like it or not and they need to accept that and move on.

The type of exit very much matters to everyone.

Not every leave voter wanted complete separation, therefore if you add those to the remain support, links to the EU may still be wanted by the majority. Yet all I seem to see is hard leavers complaining about the remainers wanting a say in the leave process. - Does not seem very democratic to exclude the opinions of such a large group of people!

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by pip08456

The way we leave? I'm sorry but I voted to leave in it's entirety, no half in or out.

Any future deals will be up to the EU and our own negotiating team. Deals can be done but on our terms not theirs.

It is a question I have asked before but what is 'out'? Would you consider not being members of any EU funded institutions/agencies as 'out' or would participating in at least some organisations be acceptable?

I am thinking for example of;

EMA for medicines
EASA for aviation
ERC/Horizon 2020 for academic research
REACH for chemical safety

It's the depth of membership that may have some impications. Third countries are associate members of EMA and EASA for example but have no policy or guideline making abilities.

One of my good friends is participating in a Horizon 2020 project - 'Implications of Medical Low Dose Radiation Exposure' https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/211042_en.html . It's grand collaborations like these we might miss down the the line unless some kind of deal is struck.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

Deals can't be done on our terms and not theirs. Deals can only be done on mutually agreed terms.

That's correct, and without that, there is no deal. We would not be the first country to trade with the EU without a deal.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 ----------

Originally Posted by Angua

The type of exit very much matters to everyone.

Not every leave voter wanted complete separation, therefore if you add those to the remain support, links to the EU may still be wanted by the majority. Yet all I seem to see is hard leavers complaining about the remainers wanting a say in the leave process. - Does not seem very democratic to exclude the opinions of such a large group of people!

People simply voted in or out. That was the choice.

If you vote Labour at the next election because of their rail nationalisation plans and they got in (God help us) would you be moaning then about the TYPE of nationalisation they were looking to implement? Of course you wouldn't, you'd trust the Government to sort out the detail.

And so we should in terms of Brexit as well. Let the government get the best deal it can, or walk away, and we'll vote on how they did at the next election.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

That's correct, and without that, there is no deal. We would not be the first country to trade with the EU without a deal.

---------- Post added at 09:52 ---------- Previous post was at 09:45 ----------



People simply voted in or out. That was the choice.

If you vote Labour at the next election because of their rail nationalisation plans and they got in (God help us) would you be moaning then about the TYPE of privatisation they were looking to implement? Of course you wouldn't, you'd trust the Government to sort out the detail.

And so we should in terms of Brexit as well. Let the government get the best deal it can, or walk away, and we'll vote on how they did at the next election.

I wouldn't trust the government of whatever shade to open a paper bag.

What they promise and what they can deliver once in power are often very different. The worst one being a simplistic vote on the EU that was insufficient to meet reality.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

It is a question I have asked before but what is 'out'? Would you consider not being members of any EU funded institutions/agencies as 'out' or would participating in at least some organisations be acceptable?

I am thinking for example of;

EMA for medicines
EASA for aviation
ERC/Horizon 2020 for academic research
REACH for chemical safety

It's the depth of membership that may have some impications. Third countries are associate members of EMA and EASA for example but have no policy or guideline making abilities.

One of my good friends is participating in a Horizon 2020 project - 'Implications of Medical Low Dose Radiation Exposure' https://cordis.europa.eu/project/rcn/211042_en.html . It's grand collaborations like these we might miss down the the line unless some kind of deal is struck.

I am sure that all those who voted to leave just wanted to leave. They were not concerned with the detail.

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

Originally Posted by Angua

I wouldn't trust the government of whatever shade to open a paper bag.

What they promise and what they can deliver once in power are often very different. The worst one being a simplistic vote on the EU that was insufficient to meet reality.

The vast majority of leavers were perfectly clear about what they wanted. It's the remainers who are trying to muddy the waters.

You cannot decide the result of a negotiation in a vote that you have before the negotiations begin! The whole idea is absurd.

Twist it as much as you like, the majority want out. Brexit means Brexit, as someone somewhere said at some time.

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

Right on, pip! So many people don't get it, do they?

Mainly because they didn't know what it meant - no one said we would have to stockpile food and medicine, or appoint a Minister for Food, or that it may lead to the Good Friday Agreement being overturned.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

I am sure that all those who voted to leave just wanted to leave. They were not concerned with the detail.

---------- Post added at 10:02 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------



The vast majority of leavers were perfectly clear about what they wanted. It's the remainers who are trying to muddy the waters.

You cannot decide the result of a negotiation in a vote that you have before the negotiations begin! The whole idea is absurd.

Twist it as much as you like, the majority want out. Brexit means Brexit, as someone somewhere said at some time.

That's a helluva assumption - do you have any facts to back it up.

I could equally say that I am sure that most of those who voted leave thought we would not be impacted financially or economically, which is not turning out to be true...

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Mainly because they didn't know what it meant - no one said we would have to stockpile food and medicine, or appoint a Minister for Food, or that it may lead to the Good Friday Agreement being overturned.

Oh, come on, Hugh! It's rather too late for that Project Fear line now. It's happening - we are about to leave.

I will be asking you about who is actually experiencing these supposed food shortages, inability to get medication, etc after we've left, because honestly, this is just so much nonsense.

Incidentally, what's the Good Friday Agreement got to do with border checks for goods? Where is that mentioned in the Good Friday Agreement?

When this is over, the population will be left stunned. Not because of the catastrophic outcomes that remainers are shouting about, but because none of these events actually happened.

A free trade agreement of sorts will be done and the detail will be taken care of through negotiation. End of.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Mainly because they didn't know what it meant - no one said we would have to stockpile food and medicine, or appoint a Minister for Food, or that it may lead to the Good Friday Agreement being overturned.

---------- Post added at 10:04 ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 ----------

That's a helluva assumption - do you have any facts to back it up.

I could equally say that I am sure that most of those who voted leave thought we would not be impacted financially or economically, which is not turning out to be true...

It does seem to be the hard leavers who have a literal view of what the leave vote meant and assume that everyone who voted leave took it as simplistically as they do. The reality is different, why else are those who voted remain still complaining? Why else are the government struggling to find a way out which keeps most of the population happy? Why else are there specific issues with NI border that need resolving in order to comply with the GFA? Why else are negotiations taking place at all? Why else does A50 have a 2 year negotiation period?

People voted to leave for all sorts of reasons, many of which have turned out to be totally illogical, or not even for something the EU are responsible for in the first place.

Yet it seems only the minority hard leave group are allowed an opinion, they certainly manage to complain enough about the remain voters.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Angua

It does seem to be the hard leavers who have a literal view of what the leave vote meant and assume that everyone who voted leave took it as simplistically as they do. The reality is different, why else are those who voted remain still complaining? Why else are the government struggling to find a way out which keeps most of the population happy? Why else are there specific issues with NI border that need resolving in order to comply with the GFA? Why else are negotiations taking place at all? Why else does A50 have a 2 year negotiation period?

People voted to leave for all sorts of reasons, many of which have turned out to be totally illogical, or not even for something the EU are responsible for in the first place.

Yet it seems only the minority hard leave group are allowed an opinion, they certainly manage to complain enough about the remain voters.

The majority voted to leave, plain and simple. Do you actually know a single leaver who wants to remain in the Customs Union? People were sold free trade deals, getting back sovereignty, no longer being subject to the ECJ and no more free movement. The remainers complain that, for example, nobody was asked about the customs union. That is true, but given the acceptance of arguments about forging new trade deals, how would a customs union actually permit that?

You are deliberately attempting, with all the others who voted to remain, to muddy the waters and introduce irrelevant arguments that you may feel are issues or ways of getting a u-turn. However, the vast majority of remainers are not at all concerned about those arguments. They voted to leave the EU. Leavers do not misunderstand what 'leave' actually means.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Hugh

Mainly because they didn't know what it meant

Didn't you, well that's your fault.

I did. It meant leaving the Single market the customs union, the jurisdiction of the ECJ and all of the other associated European treaties. Access to or participation in post brexit to be negotiated and new bi-lateral agreements to be sorted out.

That's why I voted remain.

I could equally say that I am sure that most of those who voted leave thought we would not be impacted financially or economically,

In that case then they were idiots, but why should that surprise you??????

Every 5 years we have a vote and I would suggest that a very, very, very small % actually read the manifestos and know exactly what they are voting for? But we don't re-run the election for the thicko's then and we shouldn't now.

[OLD BOY]

Originally Posted by Hugh

That's a helluva assumption - do you have any facts to back it up.

I could equally say that I am sure that most of those who voted leave thought we would not be impacted financially or economically, which is not turning out to be true...

An assumption? I know a great many people who voted leave, and they are as annoyed as I am with the assumptions by remainers about what that means. This also comes out at Question Time, with leavers in the audience getting very fed up with people who insist they didn't know what they voted for.

The confusion is in the heads of the remainers if they really think that. However, my suspicion is that all they are trying to do is overturn the vote.

There will be riots in the streets if that happens. The British electorate has had their say. Now it is up to the politicians to sort it out.

[Angua]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

The majority voted to leave, plain and simple. Do you actually know a single leaver who wants to remain in the Customs Union? People were sold free trade deals, getting back sovereignty, no longer being subject to the ECJ and no more free movement. The remainers complain that, for example, nobody was asked about the customs union. That is true, but given the acceptance of arguments about forging new trade deals, how would a customs union actually permit that?

You are deliberately attempting, with all the others who voted to remain, to muddy the waters and introduce irrelevant arguments that you may feel are issues or ways of getting a u-turn. However, the vast majority of remainers are not at all concerned about those arguments. They voted to leave the EU. Leavers do not misunderstand what 'leave' actually means.

Nope, just injecting a bit of reality into the simplistic assumptions of those who still support hard Brexit. We are still connected by a tunnel regardless, or should this be blown up?

I voted leave, I did not vote for complete separation between us and the EU.

With all the problems Brexit has thrown up I wish I and others who have since changed their minds had voted to stay.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Angua

The type of exit very much matters to everyone.

Not every leave voter wanted complete separation, therefore if you add those to the remain support, links to the EU may still be wanted by the majority. Yet all I seem to see is hard leavers complaining about the remainers wanting a say in the leave process. - Does not seem very democratic to exclude the opinions of such a large group of people!

You also need to factor in the 16/17 year olds how were not able to vote in 2016 plus the, put delicately,"loss" of 100,000's of Leave voting older people.

The demographic momentum is against Leave ..

Originally Posted by Angua

The type of exit very much matters to everyone.

Not every leave voter wanted complete separation, therefore if you add those to the remain support, links to the EU may still be wanted by the majority. Yet all I seem to see is hard leavers complaining about the remainers wanting a say in the leave process. - Does not seem very democratic to exclude the opinions of such a large group of people!

The referendum was a binary vote - one or the other.

One choice won by over a million votes - That's a massive majority of people.

I have no qualms of accepting Remainers say on the leave process but it's been more than this - it's been utter bullshit about trying to keep us tied to the EU, then rubbish about not many people voting in one of the largest Democratic processes of modern times. Rubbish that people didn't know what they were voting for.

Now Remainers want a second vote to get their own way - not a chance - we had a vote, one is enough. We do not keep having the same vote over and over again. Or we might as well just piss over democracy that people fought and died for.

I voted to leave the EU in it's entirety, that was what was on the ballot paper - it's manifestly absurd to suggest no-one knew what exactly they were voting for when that action was exactly on the ballot paper - it did not say "Partially leave the EU".

Lastly - what the hell is a "hard leaver" ? - there is no such thing.

A person who voted to leave the EU is not a hard leaver - they are a leaver.