Coronavirus

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by pip08456

I don't recall Thalidomide being a vaccine.

He didn't say it was' he said "everybody thought that Thalidomide etc was safe".

Thalidomide was not a vaccine, and its repeated use as a comparison to the development of any vaccine is ignorant in the extreme.

Drug treatments that deploy novel chemical compounds, designed deliberately to alter body chemistry for therapeutic effect may at the same time alter it in such a way as to cause damaging side effects. This is what clinical trials are supposed to identify. In fact modern modelling techniques would aim to identify such serious possible side effects before wide-scale clinical trials even start.

A vaccine does not set out to invent a new chemical, or to purify and utilise a discovered chemical. In one way or another, a vaccine uses bits of the target virus itself (or a close relative) to provoke an immune response. The cure comes from persuading the human body to do more effectively what it is already capable of doing, not in chemically altering the human body.

Obviously there are always risks in injecting something into someone, however the risks from a vaccine simply aren't in the same category as thalidomide, which was itself a once in a generation catastrophe whose most famous unwanted side effects were caused in a patient group which had not even been tested (pregnant women).

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Thalidomide was not a vaccine, and its repeated use as a comparison to the development of any vaccine is ignorant in the extreme.

Drug treatments that deploy novel chemical compounds, designed deliberately to alter body chemistry for therapeutic effect may at the same time alter it in such a way as to cause damaging side effects. This is what clinical trials are supposed to identify. In fact modern modelling techniques would aim to identify such serious possible side effects before wide-scale clinical trials even start.

A vaccine does not set out to invent a new chemical, or to purify and utilise a discovered chemical. In one way or another, a vaccine uses bits of the target virus itself (or a close relative) to provoke an immune response. The cure comes from persuading the human body to do more effectively what it is already capable of doing, not in chemically altering the human body.

Obviously there are always risks in injecting something into someone, however the risks from a vaccine simply aren't in the same category as thalidomide, which was itself a once in a generation catastrophe whose most famous unwanted side effects were caused in a patient group which had not even been tested (pregnant women).

No one has claimed it was.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

No one has claimed it was.

Then why set it up as a comparison? It doesn’t work the same way, it wasn’t tested the same way. It’s like refusing to go on a train because you witnessed a plane crash.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Then why set it up as a comparison? It doesn’t work the same way, it wasn’t tested the same way. It’s like refusing to go on a train because you witnessed a plane crash.

In my opinion it was just to show that just because you believe something is safe it may have hidden dangers that are not thought of at the time.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

In my opinion it was just to show that just because you believe something is safe it may have hidden dangers that are not thought of at the time.

I think you're being very charitable. I don't think it's an accident that some people are choosing the most extreme example of a disaster caused by an inadequately controlled and tested drug to compare with covid vaccines. It's not a general observation about drug safety, it's an attempt to undermine confidence in the covid vaccines themselves. Unfortunately, it's based on an appeal to fear, and lacks understanding of how modern drugs are controlled and tested.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

I think you're being very charitable. I don't think it's an accident that some people are choosing the most extreme example of a disaster caused by an inadequately controlled and tested drug to compare with covid vaccines. It's not a general observation about drug safety, it's an attempt to undermine confidence in the covid vaccines themselves. Unfortunately, it's based on an appeal to fear, and lacks understanding of how modern drugs are controlled and tested.

But the testing has been rushed, most new treatments don't go into production for use in the general population in such a short timeframe, if people want to take the vaccine then they should be aware that it has been rushed into the final stages of production, I personally will not be having the vaccination until it has a few years safety record behind it, but I wouldn't stand in the way of anyone who wants it, it has to be down to the individuals choice.

It hasn’t been rushed - what has happened is that a long ton of resources have been thrown at it, at the expense of everything else those researchers would otherwise have been working on at the same time. In normal circumstances it is economics that drives the pharmaceutical development schedule as much as the actual science.

And, this can’t be stressed enough, this is a vaccine, not a drug therapy. All vaccines use a limited range of approaches to achieve the same basic response in the human body. There is a lot less that is unknown at the start of the process and a lot of work the researchers could simply get on and do, without first having to design and test novel chemical compounds in a lab (which does often take years).

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

It hasn’t been rushed - what has happened is that a long ton of resources have been thrown at it, at the expense of everything else those researchers would otherwise have been working on at the same time. In normal circumstances it is economics that drives the pharmaceutical development schedule as much as the actual science.

And, this can’t be stressed enough, this is a vaccine, not a drug therapy. All vaccines use a limited range of approaches to achieve the same basic response in the human body. There is a lot less that is unknown at the start of the process and a lot of work the researchers could simply get on and do, without first having to design and test novel chemical compounds in a lab (which does often take years).

Well if you're happy with it then get in line, I'll let patience be my strategy

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Well if you're happy with it then get in line, I'll let patience be my strategy

Demographics have put me at the back of the queue already, but as I know several people who have had to deal with the fallout from COVID deaths of older people, I would simply say that the risks of not having the vaccine, especially in the over 60s, are vastly greater than the risks of having it. When I get my appointment I won’t be turning it down.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Chris

Demographics have put me at the back of the queue already, but as I know several people who have had to deal with the fallout from COVID deaths of older people, I would simply say that the risks of not having the vaccine, especially in the over 60s, are vastly greater than the risks of having it. When I get my appointment I won’t be turning it down.

I have a friend who is eighty next month, and he is adamant he's not going to have it, he is an anti vaxer who only believes in natural medicines, he's doing alright for his age.

Chances are he was vaccinated against all the really nasty stuff before he was old enough to encounter all the anti-vax bolleaux on the internet.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I have a friend who is eighty next month, and he is adamant he's not going to have it, he is an anti vaxer who only believes in natural medicines, he's doing alright for his age.

What are "natural medicines’, please?

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Hugh

What are "natural medicines’, please?

Things that nature provides, like plant derived medicines not synthetic copies.
I'm no expert on natural remedies so not the best person to explain it.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

Things that nature provides, like plant derived medicines not synthetic copies.
I'm no expert on natural remedies so not the best person to explain it.

Thank you.

I wonder, if he has an major operation, he uses a "natural" general anaesthetic?