Coronavirus

Originally Posted by nomadking

Have there been any other examples where a vaccine has actually been shown to be less effective in the over-65s? If not, then saying use in over-65s is not proven, is a bit flimsy. If there have been examples where a vaccine has been found to be less effective, then caution might make more sense.

I discussed this with my brother in law, who works in this field (and has for over 40 years).

The older you get, the more your body wears out (he says we’ll all die of some form of cancer, if something else doesn’t get us - your body’s repair mechanisms make more and more faulty cells, rather than the good ones).

Because of this, vaccines (and medications) can cause different reactions in older people than in those in younger age groups - this is why older people often need additional medications to counter-act some of the effects of taking medications which those younger than them don’t need.

So, they like to confirm that medications/vaccines won’t cause adverse effects in older people, rather than assume it (which is why the cohort I was in for the Novavax vaccine was mainly 60+).

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by nomadking

Have there been any other examples where a vaccine has actually been shown to be less effective in the over-65s? If not, then saying use in over-65s is not proven, is a bit flimsy. If there have been examples where a vaccine has been found to be less effective, then caution might make more sense.

This study shows flu vaccination efficacy dropping from 51% in under 65's to 37% which is quite a drop. As Hugh said, as you age, your immune system drops off. There can also be inflammation issues in the elderly - think rheumatoid arthritis for example which is the immune system going awry.

Clinical trial design is tough as you really want to remove 'confounding factors' - other issues with the subjects of the trial that might affect the results and the elderly may have lots of those.

In all likelihood, the vaccines will be effective in the elderly and this is how the UK has approached things but for a formal acceptance of a drug on to the market this isn't enough, you need to prove it.

[papa smurf]

I'm quite worried, atm I'm quite fit /don't take any medications and my immune system seems to work just fine, but the science seems to say that from June 22 [my 65 birthday] i'm going to become a doddering old fart a vulnerable old fogey, a drain on the NHS.........

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I'm quite worried, atm I'm quite fit /don't take any medications and my immune system seems to work just fine, but the science seems to say that from June 22 [my 65 birthday] i'm going to become a doddering old fart a vulnerable old fogey, a drain on the NHS.........

Yep! I can confirm that as soon as I reached 65 bits began to fall off or degrade. You will be on the downward slope after that. It begins with the doctor putting you on Statins and off you go. I've had an op on my degraded wrist, breast cancer treatment, and the basement refurbished and currently I'm fighting arthritis in various joints. I'm currently pleased to be able to avoid my doctor's surgery due to the current panic over covid because it seems like every time I visit they find something else to fix.

You are doomed!

Actually Jfman raised an interesting point the other day ... a useful side-effect of the decision not to use the Oxford vaccine on older people in many European countries has handed their governments a decent excuse to explain their limited supply and also to do what the statistics say you should, but human decency says you shouldn't, which is to give the vaccine to younger people, who have more life ahead of them, and leave the elderly to take their chances...

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually Jfman raised an interesting point the other day ... a useful side-effect of the decision not to use the Oxford vaccine on older people in many European countries has handed their governments a decent excuse to explain their limited supply and also to do what the statistics say you should, but human decency says you shouldn't, which is to give the vaccine to younger people, who have more life ahead of them, and leave the elderly to take their chances...

I'm quite sure the decision, where taken, is political. After all, they'll give the Pfizer vaccine to the >65s. It would be political suicide to penalise the >65s by making them wait.

[1andrew1]

I know we shouldn't go by anecdotal evidence, but of the seven people over 80 I know across England, all have received the Pfizer vaccine.
Really putting it out there. It's obviously not a sufficient sample size to be meaningful.
If this pattern did proves to be more widespread, it might be that delivery schedules mean that more over-80s are receiving the Pfizer vaccine than the AstraZeneca one anyway.

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

I know we shouldn't go by anecdotal evidence, but of the seven people over 80 I know across England, all have received the Pfizer vaccine.

Is there a hint from you that this might be deliberate policy or are you just putting it out there?

My own surgery gave Pfizer to the over-80s but are definitely giving AZ to the over 75s.

[tweetiepooh]

Maybe the over 80's got Pfizer because that was what was available when they were called in?

[joglynne]

The AZ vaccinations did not start until 2nd January whilst the Pzizer Vaccinations started in early December so many over 80s and those in that first group had the Pfizer jab as it was the only one available.

beaten to the line by tweetiepooh.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

I'm quite worried, atm I'm quite fit /don't take any medications and my immune system seems to work just fine, but the science seems to say that from June 22 [my 65 birthday] i'm going to become a doddering old fart a vulnerable old fogey, a drain on the NHS.........

The science says that from around that age (could be before, could be after, it’s an average), things start working less well in a slow downward curve (if you’re lucky) rather than just a "falling off a cliff" plummet - hope that reassures you...

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by tweetiepooh

Maybe the over 80's got Pfizer because that was what was available when they were called in?

All seven were vaccinated in January.

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

All seven were vaccinated in January.

It will just come down to where supplies have been assigned and how quickly they have been used. Storage is also a factor with the Pfizer vaccine which will affect where it can be sent. Given the speed and scale of the vaccine programme I don't think they're going to be making any more than purely practical decisions about which one to use in any given location.

[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

Actually Jfman raised an interesting point the other day ... a useful side-effect of the decision not to use the Oxford vaccine on older people in many European countries has handed their governments a decent excuse to explain their limited supply and also to do what the statistics say you should, but human decency says you shouldn't, which is to give the vaccine to younger people, who have more life ahead of them, and leave the elderly to take their chances...

Well it allows them to take a differentiated approach to it by guaranteeing the elderly the more effective vaccines and the younger, who are less likely to develop complications in any case, can use the least effective of the approved vaccines.

It also applies the logic we did of using the 12 week window that it’s better to give more people some immunity than people than a small number of people strong immunity.

It’s very easy to spin given the immediate confusion in the AZ trial results.

[joglynne]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

All seven were vaccinated in January.

I don't understand the point you are making.

I had my Pfizer jab in late January because that was the vaccine that one of the large Surgeries was using as it had the necessary freezer to store that vaccine. The other Surgery hub in my area didn't have that capability so they used the AZ vaccine. It all depended in which postcode our actual Surgery was located where we ended up getting vaccinated.