Brexit (Old)

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well that's they're going to have to work out. I'm sure there is an answer if they think hard enough.

They've given us their solution. It's up to us to propose a workable alternative.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Pierre

How does finding another solution than the backstop endanger the sanctity of the EU?

The EU said to May/UK, stop arguing, the deal is on the table, come back to us with a consensus that will get the deal over the line.

That is precisely what we have done, we have gone back and said, we'll take the deal, we'll even pay you the £40+ Billion (with no strings)

but we can't agree to the backstop, change the backstop and you have a deal

Now, to anyone with half a brain that is position to work from, if the EU continue to say "non" over this one issue they will inevitably come under immense pressure from their own members and those members governments will be under pressure from their business/industry bodies to sort something out.

It's 1no. item

I believe in common sense, and it wold be common sense to sort this 1no issue out to ensure the deal goes through.

Once the deal goes through, May will step down in September, and a new PM can sort out the future trading relationship.

---------- Post added at 14:08 ---------- Previous post was at 14:07 ----------



Well that's they're going to have to work out. I'm sure there is an answer if they think hard enough.

You're missing my point yet again and tbh i don't have time to explain yet again to those that refuse to listen.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

You're missing my point yet again and tbh i don't have time to explain yet again to those that refuse to listen.

Well you're not making it very well then are you?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

Valid point, however, surely the primary interest of the EU is to protect the sanctity of the EU?

If they were to weaken it potentially leads to issues inside the bloc

They are going to protect their own, and if that means punishing the UK then that's the route I suspect they will take.

The Greek bailout did not protect the sanctity of the EU, if by that you mean the smooth operation of its various rules and procedures by adherence to laws and treaties. It was explicitly forbidden, but they did it anyway, because it served a purpose which was clearly held to be more important - the restoration of the Greek economy to a healthy, functioning state.

Likewise, a solution to the requirement for an open border on the island of Ireland may not protect the sanctity of the EU in strict terms, but I suspect when it comes to it the healthy functioning of the economy of a member state, in this case Ireland, will be weighed and judged to be more important.

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well that's they're going to have to work out. I'm sure there is an answer if they think hard enough.

Sure but that does seem quite hard. Do we know of any open borders across zones that do not have a customs union? At least for economies the size of ours?

It seems at the very least it's difficult which is what the backstop is about. Until we solve that the backstop remains which is why a time limited version seems to destroy the point of it.

But changing the question why is the backstop so horrible anyway? If it is this easy then the deal will be sorted in the transition period. Thus making the backstop redundant. If it is difficult then we'll be a customs union for goods with our closet and biggest trading partner who also happen to be one of the biggest, soon to be the biggest, trading block in the world. Because of the distance and the size of the economies it's unlikely we'll ever have a trading destination that exceeds the EU in our lifetimes. At least not for physical goods.

In all the things that people wanted from Brexit May's agreement delivers nearly all of it and the one part it doesn't could be sorted later. It's there ready to go having been agreed with the EU and the backstop for the whole of the UK was a concession to us.

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Damien

At this point I am thinking we might as well. Let them have the pure Brexit they wanted and own it if there are consequences. If it does turn out fine then they were right and it worked, if it does go wrong then they can't pretend 'it wasn't Brexit though' and it's on them.

Except the consequences are for us, the ones who had this forced on us. The ones who vocally call for this are well insulated from the results so they can risk all.

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Pierre

How does finding another solution than the backstop endanger the sanctity of the EU?

The EU said to May/UK, stop arguing, the deal is on the table, come back to us with a consensus that will get the deal over the line.

That is precisely what we have done, we have gone back and said, we'll take the deal, we'll even pay you the £40+ Billion (with no strings)

Wait, so the UK had no say in the Withdrawal Agreement, it's purely what the EU has offered us? I was under the impression that this was a mutually agreed text between the government and the EU that we now want to change

[pip08456]

Originally Posted by ianch99

Except the consequences are for us, the ones who had this forced on us. The ones who vocally call for this are well insulated from the results so they can risk all.

Really? You poor little thing. I have an idea you are more well insulated than I or many others.

Don't forget all of us who voted leave were the uneducated working underclass or has that theory now been dismissed?

Originally Posted by pip08456

Really? You poor little thing. I have an idea you are more well insulated than I or many others.

Don't forget all of us who voted leave were the uneducated working underclass or has that theory now been dismissed?

Distortion of what was actually reported - polls showed that voters who voted Brexit were more likely to be working class or not have attended Higher Education.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Really? You poor little thing. I have an idea you are more well insulated than I or many others.

Don't forget all of us who voted leave were the uneducated working underclass or has that theory now been dismissed?

Don't forget the retired underclass,not sure what insulation we have.
I just want out.

[Pierre]

Originally Posted by Damien

Sure but that does seem quite hard. Do we know of any open borders across zones that do not have a customs union? At least for economies the size of ours?

There's already a border between the North and South for a whole range of issues. We need a little invention and will, pretty sure "will" being the major factor.

It seems at the very least it's difficult which is what the backstop is about. Until we solve that the backstop remains which is why a time limited version seems to destroy the point of it.

Well they advised the backstop was purely insurance and neither side wanted to use it or thought that they would use it. So why not back yourself to sort it out and remove it.

But changing the question why is the backstop so horrible anyway? If it is this easy then the deal will be sorted in the transition period. Thus making the backstop redundant.

exactly mu earlier point

If it is difficult then we'll be a customs union for goods with our closet and biggest trading partner who also happen to be one of the biggest, soon to be the biggest, trading block in the world.

but defacto still in the EU - unable to strike trade deals, subject to the ECJ and not brexit..

In all the things that people wanted from Brexit May's agreement delivers nearly all of it and the one part it doesn't could be sorted later. It's there ready to go having been agreed with the EU and the backstop for the whole of the UK was a concession to us.

I agree, the EU saw it as concession, but we see it as potential shackles.

As you say it's a 2year period, both side should commit to sorting it within that period one way or the other.

[djfunkdup]

Oh well.

Looks like the poor are going to be leading the rich for a change then ChopChop

[ianch99]

Originally Posted by pip08456

Really? You poor little thing. I have an idea you are more well insulated than I or many others.

Don't forget all of us who voted leave were the uneducated working underclass or has that theory now been dismissed?

If all you can do is patronise then you have already lost the argument Let's stick to the debate shall we?

[jfman]

If the EU can be certain of anything it’s that we will blink if they do not. There’s no Parliamentary will for no deal, no adequate preparations made and nobody will want the blame for it.

To make concessions now would only embolden elements of the Conservative Party into demanding more. We have shown no coherent strategy for two years, and there’s no indication we can for two months.

[1andrew1]

One thing to remember is that it was the UK who devised the backstop as a solution to the Irish border problem. So now we're trying to backtrack on an offer we made. Hmm. Can't see that working too well.