Brexit (Old)

[Dave42]

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Britain is preparing for trade negotiations with almost two dozen nations after they objected to the terms it proposed for its World Trade Organisation membership after Brexit

[1andrew1]

Originally Posted by Dave42

The Times of London
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Britain is preparing for trade negotiations with almost two dozen nations after they objected to the terms it proposed for its World Trade Organisation membership after Brexit

Hmm. It appears the whole world is either punishing us (victim mentality) or taking advantage of our weakened state.

Originally Posted by papa smurf

The petition is doing well

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ


48,000

Less than an hour and half since you posted this - it's gone up by over 2,000 to reach 50K. Not bad to say it's getting very little media coverage.

Not that is matters. There is no high demand for a second vote in the whole of the UK.

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

The petition is doing well

https://petition.parliament.uk/petit...J9XAT85WC240hQ


48,000

Not really compared to the 390,000 that have signed the petition for a new referendum.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8467491.html

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Mr K

Not really compared to the 390,000 that have signed the petition for a new referendum.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8467491.html

50,000 now

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

50,000 now

Well when it gets to 500,000. get back to us...

Originally Posted by Mr K

Well when it gets to 500,000. get back to us...

Well nothing - I am still waiting for you actually, to get back to us when your Brexit protester marches, reaches 17.4 Million.

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

Not really compared to the 390,000 that have signed the petition for a new referendum.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-a8467491.html

Yes really -

17.4 Million beats 390,000

[jonbxx]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

Rubbish and you know it. We voted for a small percentage of MEPs and ours don't want federalisation and domination of the European Parliament over ours. We look like them but don't think like them.


As to your question - what's the current situation got to do with my point about their drive to federalisation? The MEPs are right behind the EC's game.

---------- Post added at 16:53 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

I do not believe what I said is rubbish so please don't suggest that I know it is. The UK delegates some responsibilities to the EU as per the treaties that successive governments that we elected signed up to. The EU parliament votes for new EU laws alongside the EU Council which votes sometimes on qualified majority voting and sometimes requiring unanimity. However, the EU can only create new laws on the principle of subsidiarity, hence my asking for examples of the EU parliament overruling the UK on this principle.

Even the UK government says that parliament has always been sovereign - https://assets.publishing.service.go...the_EU_Web.pdf

On the subject of federalisation, a certain David Cameron got us an opt out anyway - see section C.1 - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...01.0001.01.ENG

[Mr K]

Originally Posted by Mick

Well nothing - I am still waiting for you actually, to get back to us when your Brexit protester marches, reaches 17.4 Million.

---------- Post added at 19:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:03 ----------



Yes really -

17.4 Million beats 390,000

And 49 million is more than 17 million...

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

I do not believe what I said is rubbish so please don't suggest that I know it is. [SEPH]: I call it as I see it. In other words I credit you with some intelligence; if you really thought you weren't spouting rubbish then I take that back.

The UK delegates some responsibilities to the EU as per the treaties that successive governments that we elected signed up to. The EU parliament votes for new EU laws alongside the EU Council which votes sometimes on qualified majority voting and sometimes requiring unanimity. However, the EU can only create new laws on the principle of subsidiarity, hence my asking for examples of the EU parliament overruling the UK on this principle. [SEPH]: What you have said is highly specious and not addressing my assertion at all. I'm talking about the march to federalisation when the EU Parliament would trump national parliaments. I made that quite clear and veering off as you've done is irrelevant.

Even the UK government says that parliament has always been sovereign - https://assets.publishing.service.go...the_EU_Web.pdf

On the subject of federalisation, a certain David Cameron got us an opt out anyway - see section C.1 - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...01.0001.01.ENG

With regard to your link to the guvmin's paper, the relevant text actually says:

Parliamentary sovereignty

2.1 The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that. The extent of EU activity relevant to the UK can be demonstrated by the fact that 1,056 EU-related documents were deposited for parliamentary scrutiny in 2016. These include proposals for EU Directives, Regulations, Decisions and Recommendations, as well as Commission delegated acts, and other documents such as Commission Communications, Reports and Opinions submitted to the Council, Court of Auditors Reports and more.

2.2 Leaving the EU will mean that our laws will be made in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, and will be based on the specific interests and values of the UK. In chapter 1 we set out how the Great Repeal Bill will ensure that our legislatures and courts will be the final decision makers in our country.

2.2 is the main point. The CJEU can direct us currently if we don't implement EU directives.

In any case, and this is key, "parliamentary sovereignty" is an inward looking definition because it refers only to the UK Parliament being the supreme lawmaker whose laws cannot be overruled by the Courts. It is wholly sovereign only to the extend that it can end any law, including EU law in which case, while we are a member, can be overruled by the CJEU.



---------- Post added at 19:38 ---------- Previous post was at 19:38 ----------

Originally Posted by Mr K

And 49 million is more than 17 million...

The referendum result was to LEAVE.

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Mr K

And 49 million is more than 17 million...

52,000 NOW

[jonbxx]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jonbxx View Post
I do not believe what I said is rubbish so please don't suggest that I know it is. [SEPH]: I call it as I see it. In other words I credit you with some intelligence; if you really thought you weren't spouting rubbish then I take that back.

The UK delegates some responsibilities to the EU as per the treaties that successive governments that we elected signed up to. The EU parliament votes for new EU laws alongside the EU Council which votes sometimes on qualified majority voting and sometimes requiring unanimity. However, the EU can only create new laws on the principle of subsidiarity, hence my asking for examples of the EU parliament overruling the UK on this principle. [SEPH]: What you have said is highly specious and not addressing my assertion at all. I'm talking about the march to federalisation when the EU Parliament would trump national parliaments. I made that quite clear and veering off as you've done is irrelevant.

Even the UK government says that parliament has always been sovereign - https://assets.publishing.service.go...the_EU_Web.pdf

On the subject of federalisation, a certain David Cameron got us an opt out anyway - see section C.1 - https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-cont...01.0001.01.ENG
With regard to your link to the guvmin's paper, the relevant text actually says:

Parliamentary sovereignty

2.1 The sovereignty of Parliament is a fundamental principle of the UK constitution. Whilst Parliament has remained sovereign throughout our membership of the EU, it has not always felt like that. The extent of EU activity relevant to the UK can be demonstrated by the fact that 1,056 EU-related documents were deposited for parliamentary scrutiny in 2016. These include proposals for EU Directives, Regulations, Decisions and Recommendations, as well as Commission delegated acts, and other documents such as Commission Communications, Reports and Opinions submitted to the Council, Court of Auditors Reports and more.

2.2 Leaving the EU will mean that our laws will be made in London, Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast, and will be based on the specific interests and values of the UK. In chapter 1 we set out how the Great Repeal Bill will ensure that our legislatures and courts will be the final decision makers in our country.

2.2 is the main point. The CJEU can direct us currently if we don't implement EU directives.

In any case, and this is key, "parliamentary sovereignty" is an inward looking definition because it refers only to the UK Parliament being the supreme lawmaker whose laws cannot be overruled by the Courts. It is wholly sovereign only to the extend that it can end any law, including EU law in which case, while we are a member, can be overruled by the CJEU.

You do make a good point that under sovereignty, it is the legislative part only which is under parliament, not the judicial.

We did however sign up to treaties allowing EU law to be incorporated in to UK law under the TFEU (currently the Lisbon treaty) Those laws are voted on by the democratically elected bodies of the Parliament and the Council so to say the EU is undemocratic is not really true.

Now you could say that we don't win on many issues at the Parliament or Council level but the numbers don't reflect this - https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/ Even if we do lose a number of votes, does this not make the EU 'too democratic' rather than undemocratic?

[daveeb]

Originally Posted by papa smurf

52,000 NOW

At this rate you'll have more posts then Den if it gets to half the New Referendum total.

Originally Posted by Mr K

And 49 million is more than 17 million...

Sorry do not recognise 49 Million - where is this data from and what did they vote for if they voted ?

[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by jonbxx

You do make a good point that under sovereignty, it is the legislative part only which is under parliament, not the judicial.

We did however sign up to treaties allowing EU law to be incorporated in to UK law under the TFEU (currently the Lisbon treaty) Those laws are voted on by the democratically elected bodies of the Parliament and the Council so to say the EU is undemocratic is not really true.

Now you could say that we don't win on many issues at the Parliament or Council level but the numbers don't reflect this - https://fullfact.org/europe/eu-facts...-uk-influence/ Even if we do lose a number of votes, does this not make the EU 'too democratic' rather than undemocratic?

Might we meet on this: it is undemocratic in terms of national parliaments that the European Parliament is dead keen on trumping them?