NTL Missold TV package

[sullerm]

After years of happy telephone and broadband service with NTL I made the terrible mistake of taking out their TV package, not that there is anything wrong with the quility of the product.
I was telesaled and offered a great package 4Mb BB Talk Unlimited 24 TV family pack, Sky Movies and PVR all for £73.99 / month.
When the engineer came to install all he had was a standard box and after making enquiries I was told NTL don't have a PVR. I phoned to cancell and was then offered the same package minus the PVR for £65.49 / month with 3 months TU24 for free. The first bill was a part month and very complicated so it looked OK the second bill looked too high but there were a lot of telephone calls so I rang NTL and was assured the base price was £65.49. The latest bill again too high and so I phoned again and was told the base price was £73.99.
After this I phoned to cancell all my NTL packages only to be told I am tied into the TV package for 12 months. I have nothing in writting re the previous information.
Any advice on how to deal with this or am I stuck for the next 9 months.
Thanks in anticipation.

[Paul K]

Theoretically you are now tied into a 12 month contract but you took that contract out in the view of getting PVR. You can either complain directly to NTL HQ via recorded delivery letter or no doubt a team member will offer to put you in contact with someone at NTL who can help you.

[heiowge]

If you were sold it over the phone, you could argue that you had a verbal contract, and nothing in writing!

Just cancel your direct debit and refuse to pay. After all you signed up for PVR - which they didn't supply, and as they cocked up your bill. If they try to persue it, go to court and argue your case. It probably isn't the first ntl case the judge has heard!

[Stephen]

They wouldn't have said you would get a PVR as its doesn't exist yet. Maybe you miss heard them, I know for a fact most customer facing staff are the last to find anything out but I do know that the PVR will not be out till end of this year early 2007.

[lostandconfused]

Originally Posted by heiowge

If you were sold it over the phone, you could argue that you had a verbal contract, and nothing in writing!

Just cancel your direct debit and refuse to pay. After all you signed up for PVR - which they didn't supply, and as they cocked up your bill. If they try to persue it, go to court and argue your case. It probably isn't the first ntl case the judge has heard!

i dont mean to be rude, but thats really bad advise, just cancelling your direct debit and waiting for ntl to take you to court may well be the easiest way to get it sorted (or at least the way with the least action from you) and may well end up with the outcome you were after.

but you have to consider if you just cancel your direct debit it will be seen by and future credit reference agencies that you have defaulted, and while this may not be the case do you really want to run the risk of being turned down for future credit or loans because of a cock up on ntl's behalf?

by the time it gets to court, it will have already gone through to the collection agency and by that time the damage will have already been caused.

i would sugest going down the normal routes or getting a mod on here to help. cancelling your direct debit and ignoring it unitl it goes to court is never the way to deal with it.

also i dont think that you would be able to use the lack of PVR as part of being misold as it is now 3 months down the line, you would have had a 30 day money back guarantee, so if it was the main reason why you took the CATV ntl could argue you could have called up anytime 30 days after install to get it cancelled.
however you may have a case with the price you were charged, if you were offered a price because of this then ntl have an obligation to provide the services at this price for the agreed time.

so i dont think you would be able to cancel, but you may well get a discount that you were promised at the start of the contract

[sullerm]

Thanks lostandconfused that is realy good advice. My initial thought was to cancel the direct debit but I had thought twice about that for the reasons you state.

DarthYoda
I was very inquisitive of the pvr when it was offered. They told me it was better than SKY+ becuause it had 3 tuners so I could record 2 programs simultaniously while watching another. I searched the internet for an NTL pvr and found that Telewest whome they had just merged with had a box called TVDrive with 3 tuners so it all made sense and I contacted them to order it. I spoke to a different person and went through everything again on the phone to make sure before placing the order.

[Stephen]

Yes Telewest have had the TVdrive out for a few months now and it is the same box NTL: will be using. At the moment it should hopefully appear around the end of this year.

[sullerm]

As you can see the content of the offer appeared to be good, maybe I was a bit naive thinking I was getting it for £73.99 but they stressed I was getting this deal as I had both telephone and broadband with them so it appeared OK. Similarly when I found out the pvr didn’t exist the £65.49 price I was told appeared to be in the correct ball park being £8.50 cheaper minus the pvr.
I am not complaining about the price they charge per se but what I am unhappy about was being promised TU24 4mb BB full TV plus movies and pvr for £73.99.
When that failed to materialise being told the package price minus pvr was £65.49. Then getting a first bill with part month and full month in advance complete with discounts and a 3 month free TU24 sweetener as an apology for the lack of pvr which is so complex it appeared to be correct.
Querying the second bill and being convinced by customer services that it was Ok and being told the base price was £65.49.
Then finally after querying the third bill being told the base price was £73.99 and “where did I get the £65.49 from”
Then, infuriated, particularly by the unhelpful and somewhat rude customer services, I phoned to cancel all my NTL services to be told I was tied into a 12 month contract with the TV package !!!!

[big_rayster]

Sullerm i understand your frustration! you can be on the phone for an hour at a time trying to get to talk to someone who will take responsabilty for the call! Just a quick point, if you do cancel your DD and wait to go to court, don't worry about the credit record black mark because if NTL are found to be at fault you can have the judge remove(not mark as satisfied) the bad credit reference!...so happy days!
Many times going through NTLs CS only raises your blood pressure and your phone bill (think about it, they're making money from us making calls to them to complain about their service?....are we crazy or what!)
As far as tied into a 12 month contract......pah!........you originally agreed to the contract with the PVR, when it became clear that it wasn't available did they offer you a new contract without the PVR?......i doubt it! so you are still on the original agreement......they haven't provided, your right to cancel, OR pay the bill, send letter requesting money back because of non provision of service, then haul they're sad, sorry, lazy butts through the small claims court to get it settled!
I'm sorry if i seem to be repeating mylef from other posts but it seems to be the only way to get NTL to sit up and listen, other than get one of the mods to 'do an inside job' but why should we?....why can't a big company listen to the very people that make them their money!
Do i sound bitter?......lololol

[lostandconfused]

sorry i may have missed a bit earlier, was the PVR actually in the contract?

[uk1trev]

Originally Posted by big_rayster

Sullerm i understand your frustration! you can be on the phone for an hour at a time trying to get to talk to someone who will take responsabilty for the call! Just a quick point, if you do cancel your DD and wait to go to court, don't worry about the credit record black mark because if NTL are found to be at fault you can have the judge remove(not mark as satisfied) the bad credit reference!...so happy days!
Many times going through NTLs CS only raises your blood pressure and your phone bill (think about it, they're making money from us making calls to them to complain about their service?....are we crazy or what!)
As far as tied into a 12 month contract......pah!........you originally agreed to the contract with the PVR, when it became clear that it wasn't available did they offer you a new contract without the PVR?......i doubt it! so you are still on the original agreement......they haven't provided, your right to cancel, OR pay the bill, send letter requesting money back because of non provision of service, then haul they're sad, sorry, lazy butts through the small claims court to get it settled!
I'm sorry if i seem to be repeating mylef from other posts but it seems to be the only way to get NTL to sit up and listen, other than get one of the mods to 'do an inside job' but why should we?....why can't a big company listen to the very people that make them their money!
Do i sound bitter?......lololol

Maybe the best way to end this problem, doing it this way myself

[popper]

Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982
http://www.netlawman.co.uk/acts/supp...s-act-1982.php

CONSUMER PROTECTION

The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1999/19992083.htm

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ts-90-day.html
http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...tutes-library/

http://www.home.ntl.com/page/termsresidential
interesting that not one single NTL:tw employee has given out the advice or the right valid adress to write to NTL:tw , indeed, L&C (as good as she appears) has stated here that she doesnt want you writing as the department is under staffed and implyed it takes longer than the required 30 days to even receave a valid response never mind what the courts consider a reasonable time for NTL to comply with the common law etc.

as for the T&Cs theres that little thing called the law about not being a valid clause unless it gives equal rights to both partys along side all the other rights the comsumer already has by default.....
notice the lack of the word reasonable in the users favour but its there in favour of the NTL part of the contract...

"3. Duration
3.1 Our Services are subject to a minimum Initial Term starting on the date we activate the Services. You can only terminate this Agreement during the Initial Term if conditions 19.4 or 20.1 apply, otherwise we may charge you a cancellation charge which will be the charges which would have been payable to the end of the Initial Term. During the Initial Term, you may downgrade all or any of your Services to the entry level or starter package for the relevant Services by giving us one month's written notice. We may charge you a reasonable fee for a Service downgrade.
3.2 After the minimum period, either you or we may terminate this Agreement and/or any of the Services covered by this Agreement on one month's written notice."

"19.4 As well as your other rights, you shall have the right to terminate this Agreement by notice to us in writing if we fail to perform or observe any obligation under this Agreement and (in the case of a breach capable of remedy) we fail to remedy the breach within the reasonable time specified by you in your written notice requiring us to do so. Subject to Condition 22, you shall also have the right in these circumstances to claim against us for any losses and expenses which directly result from such breach by us."

"20. Cancellation Rights
You may cancel the Services without penalty in the following circumstances:-

if we increase our Charges you may cancel those Services in respect of which the Charges have increased by giving us one month's notice in writing within 30 days of the earlier of:
(a) such price increase being notified to you under Condition 6.2; or
(b) the date of your first bill following such price increase, irrespective of whether the minimum period in respect of those Services has expired. If you cancel Services under this Condition, the increased Charges relating to those Services will not apply to you;

if we significantly reduce the content of the Services or make any significant change to the terms and conditions of this Agreement under Condition 26, you may terminate this Agreement by giving us one month's notice in writing within 30 days of such change irrespective of whether the minimum period in respect of such Services has expired. "
"
22. Limitation of Liability
22.1 In performing any obligation under this Agreement our only duty is to exercise the reasonable skill and care of a competent provider of telecommunications and television services.
22.2 We will not, and our suppliers and licensors will not, be liable under this Agreement for any loss or damage which:

arises other than through our negligence or the negligence of our employees, agents or contractors or our breach of this Agreement; or
is not a reasonably foreseeable consequence of our negligence or our breach of this Agreement; or
is any business loss including loss of revenue, profits or anticipated savings; or
is for wasted expense or data being lost or harmed.
22.3 We do not restrict or exclude our liability for:

personal injury or death directly caused by Us or our employees whilst acting in the course of their employment with us;
physical damage to your personal property up to £100,000 due to any one event or series of connected events where such damage is due to our negligence or the negligence of our employees, agents or contractors acting in the course of their employment with us;
any of our liabilities which cannot by law be excluded or restricted. "

"29. Waiver
The failure by either you or us to exercise or enforce any right under this Agreement shall not be deemed to be a waiver of such right or to bar the exercise or enforcement of it or any other right."


"30. Notices
Notices given under this Agreement should be delivered by hand or by prepaid first class post or electronic mail either:

to us: at the address on this Agreement or on the last invoice or to an alternative address notified to you;
to you: at the address in this Agreement or to an alternative address notified to us. Alternatively, if you take the Television Service or Internet Services we may deliver notices to you by sending them via the ntl Network so that they are displayed on your television or computer screen. "
"
31. Law
This Agreement is subject to the laws of the place in which you live."

http://www.home.ntl.com/page/customerupdate
"
1 September 2006 Price Change Customer update: FAQs


On 1 September 2006, some of ntl's prices are changing. ntl is committed to communicating clearly with all of its customers. As with any change, you may have some questions."


that will do for a start anyway...............

---------- Post added at 23:39 ---------- Previous post was at 21:59 ----------

ohh, one last fact that you might comment on:
http://www.home.ntl.com/page/customerupdate
"
Why should I move to paying with Direct Debit?
It's cheaper. Apart from eliminating the expense and hassle of mailing cheques, it takes advantage of our Direct Debit discount "

in british law a Direct Debit is tantermount to a cash payment
so should the PP cash user also get this stated NTL discount as well!.

[sullerm]

Thanks to Russ D I had a call from NTL today and have reached an agreement with them for the duration of the years contract.
Big thanks to Russ D.