Congestion Charge - Tax or Service?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4352520.stm

Staff at the US embassy has not paid the city's congestion charge since July, claiming diplomatic immunity under the 1961 Vienna Convention.

An embassy spokeswoman said: "We consider it a tax, and it is the view of the United States government that all direct taxes on diplomats and diplomatic operations, including this one, are prohibited by the Vienna Convention."

I think they're right - it's a tax on using the roads in London - I don't see where the 'service' is provided.

agree with them in full

Originally Posted by atlantis

agree with them in full

And me

[Nugget]

But, having said that, it is a voluntary tax at its worst level (although I don't really see it as a tax anyway).

Nobody has to pay the congestion charge - if they choose not to pay it, they can simply leave their car outside the boundary and use public transport. If they feel that they must take their car into central London, then they are choosing to pay the charge.

FWIW, I believe that the congestion charge is there as a 'service' - I may not particularly agree with it, but I can see the reasoning behind it.

[BBKing]

It's not a bloody tax, it's a toll. You want to drive on a particular road, you pay up. Do they pay to go over the QE2 bridge or through the Dartford Tunnel or on the M6 Toll or on Autoroutes or Autostrade in France and Italy? If not, they shouldn't have to pay the CC, otherwise to be consistent they need to start annoying the toll collectors in those areas. Prats. This isn't the Boston Tea Party. Two fingers up from me, and doubtless two fingers up from Ken, too*.

If they don't want to pay it, move the US Embassy to Menwith Hill and we can remove a large terrorist target from the centre of London, free lots of armed police and the concrete blocks that stop ME from driving round parts of my own capital city in order to provide security for a foreign power. Might prove harder to give Blair his orders from there though. Hrrmph.

*"All staff at the American embassy should pay the congestion charge, in the same way as British officials pay road tolls in the United States." So should we stop paying our tolls on their roads?

[me283]

How will the tax be enforced, if they claim diplomatic immunity?

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by me283

How will the tax be enforced, if they claim diplomatic immunity?

What tax?

[SMHarman]

Certainly feels like a tax when there are no alternates, for example I caught the 8am eurostar to paris last week, from where I live public transport cannot get me there by 8 am, so I had to drive pass into the charging zone after 7am, so pay £8. Fab.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by SMHarman

Certainly feels like a tax when there are no alternates, for example I caught the 8am eurostar to paris last week, from where I live public transport cannot get me there by 8 am, so I had to drive pass into the charging zone after 7am, so pay £8. Fab.

But I would say that that is a rare occurrence (although it still doesn't help you, I admit).

9 times out of 10, it is purely voluntary on the part of the car driver as to whether they drive in the congestion zone - Londons public transport system is much better suited to large numbers of people using it than most other (if not all) British cities.

[SMHarman]

Originally Posted by Nugget

But I would say that that is a rare occurrence (although it still doesn't help you, I admit).

9 times out of 10, it is purely voluntary on the part of the car driver as to whether they drive in the congestion zone - Londons public transport system is much better suited to large numbers of people using it than most other (if not all) British cities.

Absolutely - i commute by train as it is the cheapest way to work and it gets me there efficiently. Just frustrating when it is Hobsons choice to pay it. I can see this becoming more frustrating when the zone extends. I often drive to Earls Court / Olympia to exhibitions as train travel is awkward, this will now be a chargable drive, yet a drive to Canary Wharf is not!

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/4352520.stm

I think they're right - it's a tax on using the roads in London - I don't see where the 'service' is provided.

This is only true if you also think that the fare for a bus or tube train is a tax on using the bus or train. Or for that matter that MacDonalds charge a burger tax.

Originally Posted by Nugget

Nobody has to pay the congestion charge - if they choose not to pay it, they can simply leave their car outside the boundary and use public transport. If they feel that they must take their car into central London, then they are choosing to pay the charge.

I guess that's not really applicable to diplomats, especially American ones. Can you imagine if the word got out that Ambassador to the UK was taking a double-decker to work...every nutter with a gun would be out looking for him!

Originally Posted by andygrif

This is only true if you also think that the fare for a bus or tube train is a tax on using the bus or train. Or for that matter that MacDonalds charge a burger tax.

A bus, train or burger are supplied as a 'service' - the road is 'just there' - no service is supplied.

And since car drivers pay road fund licence, the road's already paid for. Hence any further charge for use is a tax.

While we're all Yankee-bashing ... let's not forget that the Germans are also refusing to pay the Charge.

[Nugget]

Originally Posted by Chris T

While we're all Yankee-bashing ... let's not forget that the Germans are also refusing to pay the Charge.

Well, it does give 'em a break from annexing Poland

[andygrif]

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

A bus, train or burger are supplied as a 'service' - the road is 'just there' - no service is supplied.

And since car drivers pay road fund licence, the road's already paid for. Hence any further charge for use is a tax.

So what about the Dartford Crossing or the Clifton Suspension Bridge?

Originally Posted by Chris T

While we're all Yankee-bashing ... let's not forget that the Germans are also refusing to pay the Charge.

Well the Germans are having a bad time with money right now...they need to save a few fivers to stay afloat!