SATs Tests - Controversy

[murfitUK]

I have heard a lot of discussion on the radio about the SATs tests some young children are expected to sit today and how unfair it is on our little darlings. Some parents are even threatening to withdraw their children from school on the day of the test.

At first I thought this was all an over-reaction on behalf of parents so I thought I would see what questions were being posed in the exams:

http://www.sats2016.co.uk/ has some mock exams for English and Maths.

I got 30% for English and 88% for maths (I have a degree in maths). Keep in mind that these Key Stage 2 exams are targetted at children between the ages of 7 and 11.

Now, I have changed my mind completely and if I had kids I, too, would keep them off school.

I would be interested to know what scores you lot get on the tests!

[nomadking]

The problem seems to be how the teachers are treating them. There isn't meant to be a pass or fail as far as the children are concerned. It is just meant to assess how well they're doing and what they still need to do. In the '60s and '70s you were tested or assessed(not talking about 11+ grammar school) at various points. The problem was that there was no uniform standard. At secondary school we were given assessment grades each 3 weeks and they were read out in class.

Well Maths Im good at, I got 100% on that easily enough.

English I'm hopeless at, but I'll give that a go later.

[Osem]

I wonder if our teachers are a bit worried that they're the ones being tested.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Osem

I wonder if our teachers are a bit worried that they're the ones being tested.

That's what tests are for, ultimately. How to judge a teacher? Test their pupils....

The attitude nowadays seems to be to train kids to pass exams, not to learn useful stuff.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Osem

I wonder if our teachers are a bit worried that they're the ones being tested.

Given the lamentable standard that the pupils of these teachers achieve compared to other countries I think they're mortally afraid of being found out to be useless.

If children are "being stressed out" over some tests this is purely the fault of those applying the tests no doubt for their own nefarious purposes. i.e. Arse covering.

[Ignitionnet]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Given the lamentable standard that the pupils of these teachers achieve compared to other countries I think they're mortally afraid of being found out to be useless.

If children are "being stressed out" over some tests this is purely the fault of those applying the tests no doubt for their own nefarious purposes. i.e. Arse covering.

Thanks for clearing that up for me. There I was thinking that being married to a teacher, watching the hours she works and discussing things with her and with colleagues I might have some clue about education.

I'll let her know she's incompetent, her purposes nefarious rather than anything to do with dedication to her job, and she spends her time covering her arse rather than teaching.

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

I wonder if our teachers are a bit worried that they're the ones being tested.

They're constantly tested through learning walks, work scrutinies and lesson observations. They have performance targets annually and the kind of level of scrutiny that I have never been under in the private sector.

---------- Post added at 19:35 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------

Originally Posted by Taf

That's what tests are for, ultimately. How to judge a teacher? Test their pupils....

The attitude nowadays seems to be to train kids to pass exams, not to learn useful stuff.

See above.

Funny, there was me thinking that the tests were there to allow progress of the kids to be measured.

That attitude comes from on high, and is dictated to teachers. You want teachers to teach 'useful stuff', ask the government to stop micromanaging the curriculum and obsessing over data.

Government obsessing over it means Ofsted obsess over it. Ofsted obsessing over it means SLT (Senior Leadership Team though I'm sure all you education experts knew that) obsess over it as they're fond of being employed, and that feeds down into the classroom.

Of course the idea of testing the teacher through their pupils does have the minor issue that, while many seem to consider teachers nothing more than state-funded child care, they only have the kids for a limited period each week. If the parents don't care and home life is hideous there's little teachers can do to remedy that. If the kids have various educational needs that require additional support this can also impact on the data.

Asian kids under the same teachers in the same schools make better progress than white British kids. Why do you think that is? Think perhaps it's something to do with what happens when the kids aren't at school? Same also goes for Eastern European kids, for the same reason.

But, hey, why like facts get in the way of some teacher bashing?

[Osem]

Originally Posted by Taf

That's what tests are for, ultimately. How to judge a teacher? Test their pupils....

The attitude nowadays seems to be to train kids to pass exams, not to learn useful stuff.

Well yes, that's the point I'm making and that might account for why some of them seem so against the tests.

---------- Post added at 20:12 ---------- Previous post was at 19:57 ----------

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Given the lamentable standard that the pupils of these teachers achieve compared to other countries I think they're mortally afraid of being found out to be useless.

If children are "being stressed out" over some tests this is purely the fault of those applying the tests no doubt for their own nefarious purposes. i.e. Arse covering.

I think there's an element of that. Osem Jnr's coming to the end of his teaching degree and during his time in the classroom (on both sides of the desk) he's come across a number of teachers he considers pretty poor for a variety of reasons. On the other hand, there have been those, doubtless many, who go above and beyond what a lot of people might expect.

There's little doubt in my mind that our children need to be tested throughout their time at school but just what form that'd best take I wouldn't like to say. The problem comes when hitting results targets becomes all that matters and the education our children receive is reduced to exam practice. I can't say I'd like to be a teacher.

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Thanks for clearing that up for me. There I was thinking that being married to a teacher, watching the hours she works and discussing things with her and with colleagues I might have some clue about education.

I'll let her know she's incompetent, her purposes nefarious rather than anything to do with dedication to her job, and she spends her time covering her arse rather than teaching.

---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:32 ----------



They're constantly tested through learning walks, work scrutinies and lesson observations. They have performance targets annually and the kind of level of scrutiny that I have never been under in the private sector.

---------- Post added at 19:35 ---------- Previous post was at 19:33 ----------



See above.

Funny, there was me thinking that the tests were there to allow progress of the kids to be measured.

That attitude comes from on high, and is dictated to teachers. You want teachers to teach 'useful stuff', ask the government to stop micromanaging the curriculum and obsessing over data.

Government obsessing over it means Ofsted obsess over it. Ofsted obsessing over it means SLT (Senior Leadership Team though I'm sure all you education experts knew that) obsess over it as they're fond of being employed, and that feeds down into the classroom.

Of course the idea of testing the teacher through their pupils does have the minor issue that, while many seem to consider teachers nothing more than state-funded child care, they only have the kids for a limited period each week. If the parents don't care and home life is hideous there's little teachers can do to remedy that. If the kids have various educational needs that require additional support this can also impact on the data.

Asian kids under the same teachers in the same schools make better progress than white British kids. Why do you think that is? Think perhaps it's something to do with what happens when the kids aren't at school? Same also goes for Eastern European kids, for the same reason.

But, hey, why like facts get in the way of some teacher bashing?

[Arthurgray50@blu]

I don't think kids should start having any exams, until they reach secondary schools, when they start the real learning of life.

I took the 11 plus at school, and failed miserable.

On the first day of my Secondary school - Christopher Wren School in Shepherds Bush, l had to take an exam, to show what l had learnt in Infants School.

That exam result put me into a form of that valuation.

What the government want to do is brainwash the kids. And this is not right

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Given the lamentable standard that the pupils of these teachers achieve compared to other countries I think they're mortally afraid of being found out to be useless.

If children are "being stressed out" over some tests this is purely the fault of those applying the tests no doubt for their own nefarious purposes. i.e. Arse covering.

All depends on what criteria are used..but the top countries educationally are Japan and South Korea..which is just rote learning.This will work in some subjects but eventually it leaves critical thinking right out of the mix..and people who can think independently are ultimately what any employer worth their salt will want.The suicide levels among students in these countries are worryingly very high.

I as a retired teacher dislike your attitude that teachers in this country are deliberately setting out to stress their students and aren't trying to actively support their students..All the teachers I currently have contact with are very dedicated and very much want to see their students reach as high a standard as possible..

The real problem is that politicians both Labour and Tory treat education as an ideological matter which means we are subjected to constant knee jerk reactions and constant experimentation and u turns every 5 minutes. I'd like education to be depoliticised and handed over to a neutral organisation..but that's never going to happen.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

Given the lamentable standard that the pupils of these teachers achieve compared to other countries I think they're mortally afraid of being found out to be useless.

If children are "being stressed out" over some tests this is purely the fault of those applying the tests no doubt for their own nefarious purposes. i.e. Arse covering.

I think it's increasingly pointless to attempt to compare educational results across different countries. How do you measure it? How do you decide what is worth learning or not and if that education is best suited for the environment the student will be entering into?

As Maggy says the top countries tend to be Asian ones but they have a very technical education which can led to very proficient workforce but one that might struggle creatively. The concept of a salaryman in Japan is one of these ideals but it's one that is being openly questioned there: http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/d1a6aa18-1...#axzz47dEOcns7

But in 2016, the salaryman — unassertive, allergic to risk and with a growing list of corporate debacles to his name — has switched from asset to liability. To economists who see labour market reform as Japan’s only hope, it ranks among the country’s most insidious threats. The identity of a lot of Japanese men working in offices is tied to group think and respect for authority, says Koichi Nakano, a political scientist at Sophia University in Tokyo. “It is the very opposite of the creativity and original behaviour that the economy needs at this point,” Prof Nakano said.

The UK does seem to produce a workforce which is often innovative and creative albeit one that does have a problem with producing technically able students in subjects such as mathematics. For a country our size though we do seem to produce a disproportionate amount of inventors, designers, writers and creators.

That isn't to say we're perfect or that there aren't problems but that this league table style measurement of education is probably useless.

---------- Post added at 22:56 ---------- Previous post was at 22:52 ----------

Originally Posted by Taf

That's what tests are for, ultimately. How to judge a teacher? Test their pupils....

The attitude nowadays seems to be to train kids to pass exams, not to learn useful stuff.

If you create a system where kids are constantly tested and that the entire worth of their education and their teachers' performance is judged on that test then you're going to get kids trained to pass exams. You've incentivised that behaviour.

You seem to be making argument for ditching this set of exams...

[nomadking]

Are the kids who belong to certain groups that do better, doing so because that are also being taught at home? Somehow I doubt it.

I was taught to read before starting school, and that gave me a big head start in everything else, eg having a reading age of 11 at the age of 6.

[Gary L]

In this sentence, is the word after being used as a subordinating conjunction or as a preposition?

I just gave up and walked away then.

[Taf]

Originally Posted by Damien

You seem to be making argument for ditching this set of exams...

I was schooled during the 60's and 70's. The only rote-learning we ever did was the times tables. First by reading aloud as a class every morning, then by writing them down. The teacher gave one-to-one attention to ensure we were all up to the task. Then our knowledge was assessed by weekly tests to ensure it had been fully learned.

For other subjects the teacher explained the principles, then we had to solve or answer problems or questions. The teacher again wandered the classroom, ensuring all were up to speed.

Homework was not long and laborious, but we always had some.

The first exam was the 11+ variation, which determined your "stream" in secondary school.

Then a further exam at 13 determined what subjects you would follow for CSE and GCE exams at age 16.

But when our twins went to school it had all changed. No rote learning. The teachers tended to just read aloud from a book whilst the class wrote it all down. Then it was individual learning from books or printed sheets, that was replaced by exercises on a computer. No homework ever, apart from a short period of reading through set fiction at home with parents. And this is where the biggest problem became obvious. If you fell behind you were abandoned, one-to-one help was not available.

As learning is often based upon setting foundation knowledge then building upon it, any new task became pointless to many pupils. If you had problems with basic arithmetic, then algebra was a total mystery.

Regular testing showed which pupils were having problems with which subjects, but nothing seemed to be done to remedy any problems!

That is why I am against these new tests as they appear to achieve nothing apart from statistics and rankings.

In some cases I accept that the failings are due to poor teachers, but most often it is due to the many constraints that teachers are bound by. Oversize classes, reduced lesson times, a major drift away from the 3 R's, and excessive testing. All set by politicians fiddling and changing their minds.