North Wales cable franchise

[alestescarrow]

I realise there are lot of unbuilt cable franchises but I have no idea whatever happened to the North Wales/South Cheshire franchise, which seems to have been granted to Metro Cable TV Ltd in the late 1990's.

This is the only document I can find that fits in with Ofcom's Cable Franchises map, which illustrates North Wales as being covered by a Cable operator.

I did a quick search on Companies House and it appears that Metro Cable TV (which I beleive is a direct descendant of Maxwell Cable/Rediffusion Cable) is now operating as an IRS & MATV installer, Metro Digital Television.

Is it assumed at the company still hold the licence? And if so, why has building it never appealed to them or any other company, i.e VM?

It all comes down to money I know - as in Aberdeen - but trying to find any sort of information on this licence is almost impossible.

AFAIK the exclusive regional franchises no longer exist - that may have been a condition at some point in the past when the cablecos began to merge. I believe that any company can start a cable network wherever it likes these days, provided they get whatever local planning consent they need.

[Escapee]

Metro Cable did exactly the same with that franchise as they did with all their other pie in the sky ideas... Absolutely nothing!

At the time the company applied for that franchise it was running on a skeleton staff maintaining the few old small systems that it had not sold to CableTel/NTL.

I remember having a chuckling and expecting it to come to nothing when they were awarded the franchise, If I recall they were going to use 10GHz or 40GHz wireless links for trunk and distribution to keep civil costs to a minimum.

(There used to be a white paper online that was supplied to Ofcom showing their proposals, not sure if it's still about)

[m419]

Originally Posted by Chris

AFAIK the exclusive regional franchises no longer exist - that may have been a condition at some point in the past when the cablecos began to merge. I believe that any company can start a cable network wherever it likes these days, provided they get whatever local planning consent they need.

In 1994, Videotron wanted to cable Westminster,they couldn't because Westminster Cable TV owned by BT already had a licence, therefore they could only build a telephone network and was planned to provide IPTV and broadband.

I once heard that in North Wales somewhere, someone took over the local Rediffusion network there and started to provide there own Analogue tv service, this went on through the 90's and I think it closed not long ago

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by m419

In 1994, Videotron wanted to cable Westminster,they couldn't because Westminster Cable TV owned by BT already had a licence, therefore they could only build a telephone network and was planned to provide IPTV and broadband.

I once heard that in North Wales somewhere, someone took over the local Rediffusion network there and started to provide there own Analogue tv service, this went on through the 90's and I think it closed not long ago

I was not aware of any Rediffusion network in North Wales, the only Rediffusion networks in Wales North of Merthyr were the odd small VHF or UHF networks. I believe that a mixture of these were not build by Rediffusion but acquired by them.

The furthest I ever traveled North in Wales to work on headends was Brecon, there was also a network in the Talgarth area that I believe closed in the early 90s. (Although I also seem to remember a network being mentioned in Hay on Wye)

I never heard of any in Mid or North Wales when I was working for them.

[alestescarrow]

Originally Posted by Escapee

I was not aware of any Rediffusion network in North Wales, the only Rediffusion networks in Wales North of Merthyr were the odd small VHF or UHF networks. I believe that a mixture of these were not build by Rediffusion but acquired by them.

The furthest I ever traveled North in Wales to work on headends was Brecon, there was also a network in the Talgarth area that I believe closed in the early 90s. (Although I also seem to remember a network being mentioned in Hay on Wye)

I never heard of any in Mid or North Wales when I was working for them.

I have lived in Wrexham for most of my life and there definately has not been a Rediffusion system anywhere near here.

However I read on another forum some time ago that there was a re-broadcast system in place in either Blaenau Ffestiniog or Betwys-y-Coed... I'm not sure which. That was available until fairly recently, I don't know whether its still going.

There is also Wright's Radio Relay which operates in Newtown, Powys (Mid Wales)... that was born out of a rebroadcasting network and now provides a slightly upgraded version of the Freeview line-up. According to their website (which is actually down at the moment), viewers are able to use Freeview boxes/STBs with an additional converter box, which changes the signal between DVB-C to DVB-T... but interestingly it also provides True Movies, Movies4Men, etc... I presume that's an additional multiplex.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by alestescarrow

I have lived in Wrexham for most of my life and there definately has not been a Rediffusion system anywhere near here.

However I read on another forum some time ago that there was a re-broadcast system in place in either Blaenau Ffestiniog or Betwys-y-Coed... I'm not sure which. That was available until fairly recently, I don't know whether its still going.

There is also Wright's Radio Relay which operates in Newtown, Powys (Mid Wales)... that was born out of a rebroadcasting network and now provides a slightly upgraded version of the Freeview line-up. According to their website (which is actually down at the moment), viewers are able to use Freeview boxes/STBs with an additional converter box, which changes the signal between DVB-C to DVB-T... but interestingly it also provides True Movies, Movies4Men, etc... I presume that's an additional multiplex.

Your mention of a system in Blaenau Ffestiniog brings back a few memories. My first job 1983 - 1985 was working for a company supplying and repairing 2 way radio equipment, the owner also owned 2 cable TV system in mid Wales, one in the Aberystwyth area. I recall that he sold them to 2 guys that at the time owned the system in Blaenau Ffestiniog and possibly another.

I was aware that there may have been a few smaller systems up in North Wales, generally owned by the local TV shop etc. We also had one in Usk South Wales and also one in Cwmbran, one of my college lecturers used to repair the equipment for them. In the mid 90s I also repaired some amplifiers for the Usk system.

Funny, I did enjoy those days before the yanks arrived.

ps. Last time I was in BF (about 2 years ago) I notice there was still signs of the cable network but I don't know if it was still running.

[alestescarrow]

Originally Posted by Escapee

(There used to be a white paper online that was supplied to Ofcom showing their proposals, not sure if it's still about)

This is the document which I linked above:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...e/metrocab.pdf

Its rather over-ambitious considering Metro did pay a significant amount of money to secure this licence.

I lived in Cardiff for the past 3 years and its surprising the amount of Rediffusion infrastructure that is still firmly in place and unused - was there ever a period in time when the Narrowband and Broadband operators actually competed in the same area against each other, or did the Narrowband almost instantly sell their customer base to the Broadband / just shut down instantly?

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by alestescarrow

This is the document which I linked above:
http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...e/metrocab.pdf

Its rather over-ambitious considering Metro did pay a significant amount of money to secure this licence.

I lived in Cardiff for the past 3 years and its surprising the amount of Rediffusion infrastructure that is still firmly in place and unused - was there ever a period in time when the Narrowband and Broadband operators actually competed in the same area against each other, or did the Narrowband almost instantly sell their customer base to the Broadband / just shut down instantly?

I apologies for not looking at your link, that is indeed the document I was thinking of written by Tricky Dickey himself.

I never visited the Cardiff Rediffusion network, it was one of the old HF networks and I had the impression it only covered a small part of Cardiff. (Was it the Thornhill area?)

As for running alongside I'm not really sure, but in those days the cable companies had to meet annual build targets. CableTel/ntl used some of the closed down Rediffusion/Metro closed down networks to claim as 'homes passed' to avoid fines. I remember one system in Bridgend area that had miles of cable just to feed a few customers in the bottom of a valley. It may have only been feeding a few homes but it passed thousands.

I do remember Maxwell/Metro or whatever we were called at the time suddenly taking an interest in the area when the Cardiff area franchise was announced, at the time I didn't even know they had anything there and it was I believe slowly running down to closure. I'm 99% certain that the network never carried anything other than the terrestrial off air channels. I believe there were very few customers by the time CableTel started building and I seem to recall one of the engineers shutting it down and bringing equipment back to the workshop.

Metro bid for the Mid Glamorgan franchise, again it was all pie in the sky. They ended up meeting CableTel on the steps of OFCOM the day the franchise bid had to be submitted.
It resulted in Metro selling about half of the company (Wales and Hertfordshire) for about 10 times more than they had paid for the whole lot. Thats how I ended up working for CableTel/ntl and it all went down hill from there.

Metro did have a modern system I got involved with in the Rhondda, it was an 860MHz pilot system with the intention to put RF telephony on it. This was shut within a few years of ntl taking over because the Americans considered that phone and data belonged on the telco network, and CATV was something stuck to the bottom of their shoes.

Funny how not many years later it was an American idea to launch Broadband using the CATV network

I stopped for a few more years and transferred to ntl Cardiff, I got out in early 2001 when I realised the ntl business model was doomed to fail.

ps. There was also a company called Newport Cablevision that was originally awarded the Newport franchise. One of the directors owned Penhow castle, I think they got the franchise but failed to obtain the funds to build.

[alestescarrow]

Originally Posted by Escapee

I apologies for not looking at your link, that is indeed the document I was thinking of written by Tricky Dickey himself.

I never visited the Cardiff Rediffusion network, it was one of the old HF networks and I had the impression it only covered a small part of Cardiff. (Was it the Thornhill area?)

As for running alongside I'm not really sure, but in those days the cable companies had to meet annual build targets. CableTel/ntl used some of the closed down Rediffusion/Metro closed down networks to claim as 'homes passed' to avoid fines. I remember one system in Bridgend area that had miles of cable just to feed a few customers in the bottom of a valley. It may have only been feeding a few homes but it passed thousands.

I do remember Maxwell/Metro or whatever we were called at the time suddenly taking an interest in the area when the Cardiff area franchise was announced, at the time I didn't even know they had anything there and it was I believe slowly running down to closure. I'm 99% certain that the network never carried anything other than the terrestrial off air channels. I believe there were very few customers by the time CableTel started building and I seem to recall one of the engineers shutting it down and bringing equipment back to the workshop.

Metro bid for the Mid Glamorgan franchise, again it was all pie in the sky. They ended up meeting CableTel on the steps of OFCOM the day the franchise bid had to be submitted.
It resulted in Metro selling about half of the company (Wales and Hertfordshire) for about 10 times more than they had paid for the whole lot. Thats how I ended up working for CableTel/ntl and it all went down hill from there.

Metro did have a modern system I got involved with in the Rhondda, it was an 860MHz pilot system with the intention to put RF telephony on it. This was shut within a few years of ntl taking over because the Americans considered that phone and data belonged on the telco network, and CATV was something stuck to the bottom of their shoes.

Funny how not many years later it was an American idea to launch Broadband using the CATV network

I stopped for a few more years and transferred to ntl Cardiff, I got out in early 2001 when I realised the ntl business model was doomed to fail.

ps. There was also a company called Newport Cablevision that was originally awarded the Newport franchise. One of the directors owned Penhow castle, I think they got the franchise but failed to obtain the funds to build.

From my experience of living in Cardiff, it seemed to cover a far larger population. It certainly covered the central areas of Cathays/Roath/Penylan/Whitchuch... my house had a Rediffusion junction box in the rafters... however neighbours on both sides had cut the cable.

There are lots of overhead cables crossing the streets, particulary in the terraces of Cathays, I think I saw just one cabinet - I guess Cabletel/ntl reused the few ducts that Rediffusion would have built so they are rarer than the other things.

Oh and any idea if this company: http://www.mdtv.co.uk/ is the direct descendant of Metro? According to CompaniesHouse, between 1992 and 2006 this company was known as our old-favourite, Metro Cable TV Ltd.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by alestescarrow

From my experience of living in Cardiff, it seemed to cover a far larger population. It certainly covered the central areas of Cathays/Roath/Penylan/Whitchuch... my house had a Rediffusion junction box in the rafters... however neighbours on both sides had cut the cable.

There are lots of overhead cables crossing the streets, particulary in the terraces of Cathays, I think I saw just one cabinet - I guess Cabletel/ntl reused the few ducts that Rediffusion would have built so they are rarer than the other things.

Oh and any idea if this company: http://www.mdtv.co.uk/ is the direct descendant of Metro? According to CompaniesHouse, between 1992 and 2006 this company was known as our old-favourite, Metro Cable TV Ltd.

I must admit that I have never really looked around Cardiff, I spend as much of my time there as I do in my own town, but mainly around the City Road area. I will take a bit more notice when I'm walking around.

mdtv are the same bunch as far as I'm aware. When Metro sold half of the company to ntl they retained some old HF systems and some SMATV/MATV systems in blocks of flats in the London area. I believe these were controlled out of the Welwyn Metro building but that moved over to ntl as they gained WGC, Hatfield and Stevenage as part of the deal.

The directors then were Richard Dikstra, Ron Rous, Chris Collins and Alistair Cook??? (I believe that Alistair sold his shares to the other before they sold to CableTel - Probably still kicking himself) Perhaps they are listed on companies house.

I seem to recall one of the managers Norman Asby also stopping with Metro I believe to look after the London MATV business (probably now mdtv). I think Metro also sold off some of the remaining business to other area managers, I know one ex Metro manager continued to run some old HF networks down south that he got off Metro, it may have been in Basildon. (Brain is aching thinking back this far)

I don't know exactly what happened to Metro but mdtv is obviously a remnant. I wouldn't be surprised if they sold it, went bankrupt or wound it up to avoid any liabilities.

I spotted this link for mdtv detailing the directors etc, no names that I recall which makes me think they sold it.

http://www.carehome.co.uk/supplier.c...rchazref/72589

Also found this link

http://www.companiesintheuk.co.uk/lt...tal-television

Lists 3I Investments as debenture owing, 3I funded the purchase for the management buyout when Maxwell jumped. Dated 1999 so obviously not the same transaction.

[m419]

The main purpose of the Rediffusion and other similar cable networks was to provide people with decent TV reception in those times, as the idea of commercialising and free enterprise came about, additional pay-tv channels sprung up. I don't think that system could be modernised to be honest which is why the previous owners of Rediffusion abandoned it, same with Aberdeen Cable and the BT Cable networks, which can be upgraded to the full modern standard people expect from 21st century cable network but nobody seems willing to put there hands in there pockets and pay for it.

The Rediffusion sockets and cabling as well as cabinets by blocks of flats are still present in Holborn,Central London although in a dilapidated state. Cable London, a joint venture between Comcast and Telewest cabled the area and began services in 1991 with the rest of Camden between 1993 and 1995 and the old rediffusion system was forgotten about.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by m419

The main purpose of the Rediffusion and other similar cable networks was to provide people with decent TV reception in those times, as the idea of commercialising and free enterprise came about, additional pay-tv channels sprung up. I don't think that system could be modernised to be honest which is why the previous owners of Rediffusion abandoned it, same with Aberdeen Cable and the BT Cable networks, which can be upgraded to the full modern standard people expect from 21st century cable network but nobody seems willing to put there hands in there pockets and pay for it.

The Rediffusion sockets and cabling as well as cabinets by blocks of flats are still present in Holborn,Central London although in a dilapidated state. Cable London, a joint venture between Comcast and Telewest cabled the area and began services in 1991 with the rest of Camden between 1993 and 1995 and the old rediffusion system was forgotten about.

I agree that the majority of the old HF systems were of little use, but even some of these used underground ducts for their main trunk routes. These underground ducts would have been an invaluable asset for new build, admittedly there would have been damaged sections needing repair. Utilising these ducts by pulling out the old cables and pulling in fibres would have been cost effective, but this would have involved deviating from the companies architecture plans that were set in stone early on. I also believe that the company didn't employ enough people with the necessary skills to undertake any technology that deviated from what was set in stone. We must also remember that this was all happening at a time when Barclay Knapp was securing huge amounts of money on the promise of a return for investment.

In contrast, some of the VHF cable networks were ideal candidates for upgrading. Although mostly overhead there was also the possibility splitting the areas up and also wireless delivery to the nodal area. I believe these networks were shut down due to the arrogance of the company (ntl) and the seemingly endless supply of other peoples money to fund new build.

Back then the South Wales valleys were always known as a good area for subscriber figures, the belief held in those times by people who had been in the industry for a long time was that these areas that should have been built in first. City areas like Cardiff and Newport were poor for customer figures in comparison, I believe the excuse was always that people in the city would go out for entertainment and the poorer people in the valleys would stop in and watch TV.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing and I am absolutely sure the management were too arrogant to foresee the end to the cash cow. I wonder where they are now, CV's detailing their past successes and plaguing other industries with their incompetence no doubt.

They were enjoyable days prior to CableTel/ntl, but it's a rotten industry full of sycophants and bull poo'ers that I'm for one very glad to be well away from.

[Itshim]

Rediffusion were in Caerphilly in the early 1970s at least on the Churchill Park Estate.

[alestescarrow]

So assuming Cabletel bought Metro TV's South Wales & Hertfordshire assets, the remaining Rediffusion infrastucture in South Wales is now actually owned by Virgin Media. Of course it's all pretty useless over 50 years from when it was installed, but as you say the ducts and the heavy infrastructure channels could have been so easily re-used.

And even now VM is considering a return to over-head cable following the opening up of BT poles and ducts... what goes around comes around I guess. Perhaps there will be more pressure on VM as BT Infinity's coverage increases; it will be in Wrexham by the end of the year.

But... if (extremely hypothetically!) VM were to want to expand its network into North Wales, would Metro be legally obliged to object as (if it still does) it is the legal licence holder?