"Tough on crime, tough on the causes of crime"

[Osem]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/l...re/7316601.stm

....and guess what? Yep, apparently some of those involved had been prosecuted for an earlier violent attack and been given a 6 month community sentence.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co....h_baseball_bat

As for the parents of these thugs - well one mother thought it approporiate to smirk and snigger in court and during police interviews of her son.

It beggars belief doesn't it!

[ShadowTD]

I'd consider myself a member of the 'alternative' fraternity; I wear baggy jeans, have short spiky hair, animal/quicksilver/band name hoody and the names I've been called by gangs of teens when walking through parks would make a navvy blush. I've personally never been the victim of violence but quite a few of my friends have.

I was appalled but not particularly surprised when this happened. Human beings attack the different almost by their very nature but the lack of values structure in these youths is staggering.

[Osem]

True. The really worrying thing is the serious and prolonged nature of the violence being used - shooting/stabbing eachother for a so-called minor lack of respect incident and kicking/beating people to death often over nothing much at all. Out in the early hours, drunk, .... these kids are almost feral!

[Raistlin]

The problem is that we're all 'different'.

Attacking someone, abusing them, calling them names, or just plain discriminating against them, just because they're different, is wrong - end of story.

That's not the whole problem though, it's not just people that are 'different' that are targetted.

I got out of my car on Friday night (on my way to the chippie) to be greated by a hail of abuse from 3 lads who'd obvously been enjoying the hospitality of the local pubs. Absolutely wrecked, they proceeded to call me just about every name under the sun.

Was I dressed 'strangely'? Did I differ from the 'norm' in any way? Did I look at them, or say anything to them that might have caused offence? No. I was just me, plain old ordinary me.

There are large pockets of society which seem to think it's socially acceptable to perpetrate, and perpetuate, this sort of behaviour. Anybody standing up to them either gets beaten to within an inch of their life (or past it), or they get arrested and charged themselves. TBH these days I daren't even think about 'standing up for myself' even though I know I could, it's just not worth the aggro - I just know that if I do I'll either get a) stabbed or beaten, b) locked up, c) end up on the front page of the Sun, or d) all of the above.

One on one isn't a problem, it's the gangs. Gang behaviour tends to emulate 'pack' behaviour - all members following the leader, with the only defence to be part of a 'pack' yourself.

But what can we do about it?

---------- Post added at 11:00 ---------- Previous post was at 10:59 ----------

Originally Posted by Osem

[...]these kids are almost feral!

Funny, the word 'Feral' was what I was thinking as I wrote about 'Packs' in my last post!

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Osem

As for the parents of these thugs - well one mother thought it approporiate to smirk and snigger in court and during police interviews of her son.

It beggars belief doesn't it!

Not really, sadly this is fairly normal and just an extension of the 'No it couldn't be my son/daughter' syndrome the Police normally run into whenever juveniles are concerned.
Still I wonder if she'll still be laughing in the 15 years or so before her son comes out of prison.

Now what would be ironic would be if the murderers have to grow their hair long and wear makeup in prison after they are 'befriended' by someone.

[MovedGoalPosts]

If we want to be tough on crime, we have to start with meaningful sentencing. Community service, whatever that is supposed to mean is a joke. ASBOs are seen as a badge of honour. Even if someone does get a custodial sentence, they get let out rediculously early.

It's no good just saying we need more police on the beat. If the punishment doesn't seem a deterrent, then anything else just pays lip service to the problem.

At the same time all the handwringing by the "these people are misunderstood brigade" is a red herring. Simple issue really. Discipline needs to start in schools and at home from a young age. Schools have their hands tied. Meanwhile the benefits culture results in too many being idle and loosing their own self respect and values for others.

[Derek]

Originally Posted by Rob

Even if someone does get a custodial sentence, they get let out rediculously early

Too right. I got attacked by someone armed with an axe recently (and a proper attempt, not just a wave it about it bit effort). It went all the way to court, he got found guilty and *drum roll* got 9 months. Thats with an already bad record for crimes of violence.

He'll be out by June.

And from Coppersblog today we have this piece of Judicial lunacy.

A serial petty thief convicted for the 175th time at a total cost to the taxpayer of more than £700,000, has been spared jail despite carrying out her latest crime while on bail.

It is the group behaviour these days that is the most worrying, individually today's teens can be polite respectful and nice to know. Get them in a group and all that goes right out the window and you have the baying pack mentality that seems to feel they can do anything they want as a group and have no personal responsibility for their actions.

I have only confronted a group once and that was after daily abuse and insults that i finally got fed up with and went for them as they had been coming after me i was more lucky then anything else as they backed down slinked away and i havn't had any problem since. But i really don't recommend that being an approach to be employed anymore i have seen teen's with knives and also (though i am 99% certain it was a replica) a sidearm.

It is the gang culture we have got to confront and break or the problem is going to continue to get worse until very draconian measures will be bought in by some hapless government wanting to look tougher then the problem.

[Osem]

One factor which may be being overlooked here is the presence of alcohol and/or drugs in many of these violent incidents involving young kids.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by Derek S

Too right. I got attacked by someone armed with an axe recently (and a proper attempt, not just a wave it about it bit effort). It went all the way to court, he got found guilty and *drum roll* got 9 months. Thats with an already bad record for crimes of violence.

He'll be out by June.

I know we need to have a robust and fair system but what amazes me is that is takes so many appearances in court for a conclusion. It seems that even when the evidence is overwhelming with independant witnesses and cctv evidence there is no guarantee of a conviction.

One of the local **** here is up in court again today, the last time was for a string of crimes including driving off without paying and robbing a shop and he got community service. I have heard a 'rumour' via text this morning that he may not be in court because he was arrested last night for questioning about a serious robbery.

The justice system is a complete joke, it must be one of the most long winded and unjust processes around.

I bet he doesn't go to prison.

[superbiatch]

Originally Posted by Osem

One factor which may be being overlooked here is the presence of alcohol and/or drugs in many of these violent incidents involving young kids.

Hmm, funny you should mention this I just found it on local BBC site http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/7317745.stm

[Raistlin]

I don't think it's the alcohol that's the problem, or at least not in the way that the media would have us believe.

I spent quite a lot of my teenage years drunk with my mates. None of us ever beat anybody up, none of us ever stole anything, none of us ever disrespected anybody, none of us hung around the streets at night intimidating people, none of us damaged anybody else's property.

We just went out, scored some (cheap) booze, got drunk, and had a bit of fun. If it was raining we went indoors, if it was sunny we found somewhere quiet to sit and have a mess about.

We even through our cans and bottles in the bin when we were done

So, if (about 12-15 years ago - God, that makes me sound old) we could enjoy ourselves without maiming, abusing, or killing anybody, why can't 'the youth of today' (now I really sound old!)?

[superbiatch]

Originally Posted by Raistlin

I don't think it's the alcohol that's the problem, or at least not in the way that the media would have us believe.

I spent quite a lot of my teenage years drunk with my mates. None of us ever beat anybody up, none of us ever stole anything, none of us ever disrespected anybody, none of us hung around the streets at night intimidating people, none of us damaged anybody else's property.

We just went out, scored some (cheap) booze, got drunk, and had a bit of fun. If it was raining we went indoors, if it was sunny we found somewhere quiet to sit and have a mess about.

We even through our cans and bottles in the bin when we were done

So, if (about 12-15 years ago - God, that makes me sound old) we could enjoy ourselves without maiming, abusing, or killing anybody, why can't 'the youth of today' (now I really sound old!)?

I agree completely, i did the same as you and managed to stay out of prison. I think this is something that starts from day one with discipline/respect. I mean if you've got a mum who thinks its nothing serious to be up on a murder charge - there's nothing down for you

Once the foundations are laid with lack of respect and discipline it just escalates and unfortunately they reach unruly teenage years IMO. This being when social services (and we know how big their caseloads are!)/local authority services try to help, but the damage is already done. Its a thankless task for them most of the time.

I don't know what the answers are, but i do know some kids of today are beyond help and think they're above the law and I am sick of feeling intimidated by these little runts (please note thats not aimed at all kids, i think we all know which ones i mean).

[Osem]

Clearly alcohol isn't the sole cause but I think it's undeniably an important factor in these sad events as is a lack of parental control, the absence of self respect, excessive violence on TV/internet etc. etc. It is the combination of these things which I believe has resulted in the current sad state of affairs in Bliar's Britain.

For those wondering why it is different now to when they were kids the answer is disturbinly simple. When i was a kid violence was something you only did if you had to and more foten then not it was about ending a problem not starting it.

Now violence is seen as a normal solution to any groups problem and it is seen as being cool to inflict maximum damage onto others. You will note the term group as individually you will find most teens are approachable, polite and responsive that all disaapears when they get into their groups and a more violent side appears.

This is a problem with many factors poor parenting, drink and drugs, lack of deterrent, social trends and the MEDIA yes the one's that scream for witchhunts all the time in the newspapers are the same company's that are happy to promote games like bully (has to be one of the most disgusting games i have seen) the same company's that own the music industry i have heard some of the so called modern msic and what it describes it should be banned.

I always grew up watching violent films and playing violent games but it never came with me when i left the screen now it seems too. I will never forget seeing a pack of animals kicking a boy on the ground shouting "i will gta your ass mother****er" that was an eye opener for me as i knew the chief little animal and when on his own he is the picture of politeness and good behaviour.

I cannot believe i am even saying this as i hate censorship in all forms but until we an sort this out i do now believe there has to be some censor of material and the theme of that material across the board it is no good making something adults only as a lousy parent will buy it to keep little foaming at the mouth happy.