Premium dial-up without knowledge

[marc]

Briefly,

I have just got ntl 150 broadband. I received my phone bill, which is usually around £30, and it was for over £400. ALL of the itemised calls from my 2nd line (old dial-up line) were premium rate service numbers.

I have now discovered that these numbers are all premium dial-up's. I knew nothing of their exsistance until now.

I can only put it down to getting broadband & my wife downloading Hotbar. I have since discovered that hotbar is spy/adware and tried countless times to delete it.

Anyway, getting back to the NTL bill, I feel I am a victim of fraud, my computer, as a result of this software, was dialling these numbers without my knowledge or consent. NTL are saying it's my fault, I should have known about this. I said they should have made me aware of it! verbally when I upgraded from dial-up & also when installing the broadband software.

Let this be a warning to you all, if possible, disconect your phone line from your computer (I use my computer as a fax too).

Let the battle commence....I am complaining to everyone I can, OFCOM, ICSTIS & ISPA.

I will keep you all informed, If anyone has similar experience or can help in anyway that would be great.

I did exactly that when i got broadband, i unplugged my modem. However NTL do have a point, you really ought to know what your installing and what your running on your computer even if its only from the point of view of if your running loads of rubbish it will slow it down.

Im not sure you can complain to anyone, you made those calls. NTL do not have a responsibility to inform you of changed calling patterns. Just think yourself lucky your not with BT and on a quarterly billing frequency

[Stuartbe]

Sorry m8.... I agree with Gary_580 !!

Its your own fault ! Not NTL's .... I am sure you will take more care in maintaining your pc in the future....

Oh to the site BTW

[Neil]

Hi, & welcome to the site.

You are not the first to be hit by this issue, & you won't be the last.

Unfortunately, I don't think you can blame ntl (or any ISP for that matter) for someone not properly protecting their PC.

It is quite a common problem, & may be worth a look at the ICSTIS website, as there are actually laws that apply to premioum rate diallers (such as each call must not amount to more than £20.00 or something like that)

Ultimately though, I think you have just learnt a very expensive lesson that most BB users learn-unplug your phone from your PC & make sure your PC is clean of any virii/spyware/diallers that shouldn't be on there.

BMW make cars, but you can't blame then when people don't drive properly & have accidents, & that's pretty much the case for you-ntl supplied your BB, but it was not their fault that your PC had diallers installed on it.

Just my 2c......

http://www.icstis.org.uk/icstis2002/default.asp

Out of interest-what numbers have been dialled: http://www.icstis.org/icstis2002/default.asp?Node=67

Good luck, & keep us informed.

[dilli-theclaw]

I was working on a computer last week (aol - poor poor people) and this person had repetedly been looking at various dodgy sites....

Every time they got a pop up asking for ANYTHING they blindly clicked on yes.

This resulted in a number of porn diallers on their system.

Anyway - I removed them all - but the point is people - should really take great care about what they click on

I don't mind in this case however as I got well paid for my services...

[chambece]

I don't think that Hotbar, although full of spyware is responsible for the premium rate calls, I think it just uses your exsisting connection.

Have you checked in your dial up connections on your PC?

[marc]

There are 39 different numbers, all within a 6 day period.

I can see where you are coming from with regards that I installed software & it's therefore my responsablilty, but the software did not make any references that it would dial these numbers.

I did not dial the numbers, my computer did, send the bill to my computer!!

NTL will keep this scam quiet for as long as they can, after all, non-computer experts like me end up paying NTL huge amounts of money. Why should they tell unsuspecting people.

If I do not get some sort of result on this, all my NTL services will be cancelled, tv, phone & broadband, which is over £100 per month.

As far as I am concerned, they failed to inform me, the customer, of this potential hazard, as a result they are demanding over £360. GREAT SERVICE!!

[iadom]

Originally Posted by Neil

Hi, & welcome to the site.



Ultimately though, I think you have just learnt a very expensive lesson that most BB users learn-unplug your phone from your PC

I use a couple of programs linked to my business spares suppliers etc that use the modem so my PC is always connected to the phone line as well as BB. I assume (hope) that with constant vigilance, plus good AV, ZApro, Adaware, Pest Patrol & Spybot, I am fairly safe.

[Stuartbe]

Originally Posted by marc

There are 39 different numbers, all within a 6 day period.

I can see where you are coming from with regards that I installed software & it's therefore my responsablilty, but the software did not make any references that it would dial these numbers.

I did not dial the numbers, my computer did, send the bill to my computer!!

NTL will keep this scam quiet for as long as they can, after all, non-computer experts like me end up paying NTL huge amounts of money. Why should they tell unsuspecting people.

If I do not get some sort of result on this, all my NTL services will be cancelled, tv, phone & broadband, which is over £100 per month.

As far as I am concerned, they failed to inform me, the customer, of this potential hazard, as a result they are demanding over £360. GREAT SERVICE!!

I can understand your frustration Marc but it realy is not NTL's fault. If you are going to take this up with anyone it should be the dialing software producer..

NTL are not going to be able to drop the charges as they have paid the operators of the premium rate numbers !

I think that you should chase this with Oftel ect but not NTL !

How can they send the bill to your computer

[chambece]

Originally Posted by marc

There are 39 different numbers, all within a 6 day period.

I can see where you are coming from with regards that I installed software & it's therefore my responsablilty, but the software did not make any references that it would dial these numbers.

I did not dial the numbers, my computer did, send the bill to my computer!!

Firstly, are you *sure* that your PC dialed them, I think it'd unusual for them to call 39 different numbers. Is your computer on all the while?

The other thing is did whoever install said software go and check the terms and conditions when the software was installed, including following any links that might have been given? I'm sure that the software would make those references you talk about, they just weren't read....

Also, you could try calling one of them, see if it is a modem line. And another thing - are they all UK numbers? If not I feel you'll have even less chance of getting anything back.

I know it's not much help, but ultimatly, it certainly isn't NTL's fault.... You might be able to moan about it and get it struck off, but those calls were made from your number, and so you're the one responsible unfortunatly....

[Neil]

Originally Posted by marc

There are 39 different numbers, all within a 6 day period.

I can see where you are coming from with regards that I installed software & it's therefore my responsablilty, but the software did not make any references that it would dial these numbers.

I did not dial the numbers, my computer did, send the bill to my computer!!

NTL will keep this scam quiet for as long as they can, after all, non-computer experts like me end up paying NTL huge amounts of money. Why should they tell unsuspecting people.

If I do not get some sort of result on this, all my NTL services will be cancelled, tv, phone & broadband, which is over £100 per month.

As far as I am concerned, they failed to inform me, the customer, of this potential hazard, as a result they are demanding over £360. GREAT SERVICE!!

I'm not saying that tucking it away in TS & Cs is telling you as such, but they actually do have a section on this very subject.....

15. Warning - Premium Rate Services

If you use the Internet via ntl or any other ISP you are at risk of becoming victim to what is commonly known as "Premium Dialler Fraud". Certain websites (eg adult sites) will require your dial-up network settings to be changed so that you connect to the Internet via a premium rate number. Some sites tell you your dialler settings will change and the charges. Others do not. The Internet also includes malicious code that will do this to your PC without notice.

Your dialler settings may be changed by you willingly accepting the download of the software to change your settings, or because you did not take adequate security measures to prevent download of software without your knowledge.

The result of your dialler settings changing is that you will be charged premium rates for Internet connection. Any such charges on your telephone bill, regardless of which ISP has been used for connection, are your responsibility and ntl will not refund these charges. This will apply to ntl telephone customers and ntl Internet customers using another telephone provider.

If you obtain Broadband services from us and you also have a conventional modem in your PC, we advise you to physically unplug your modem lead from the wall socket so as to prevent unwittingly being connected via third parties.

http://www.ntlhome.com/legals/userpolicy.html

Sorry-I'm not ntl's biggest fan, & you can argue the to$$ over who is to blame, but ntl are definately not to blame for software that you/your wife/etc installed on your PC (knowingly or otherwise).

Sorry.

[Chris W]

Originally Posted by marc

There are 39 different numbers, all within a 6 day period.

I can see where you are coming from with regards that I installed software & it's therefore my responsablilty, but the software did not make any references that it would dial these numbers.

I did not dial the numbers, my computer did, send the bill to my computer!!

this is taken from the user policy here:

"One of the main dangers when using the internet is the possibility of someone gaining access to your PC (or any other device you use to access the Internet) and the information you keep on it. To help prevent this we strongly recommend you use a firewall. A firewall is a product which helps protect your machine from unauthorised access. No firewall can guarantee security, but an adequate firewall will increase the security of your machine and help protect your anonymity. We do not provide firewalls ourselves, but you will find further information on security and details of various firewalls which are available on our help page.

It is your responsibility to ensure the security of your machine and ntl can not be responsible to you in the event that a person gains unauthorised access, whether or not you use a firewall."

NTL will keep this scam quiet for as long as they can, after all, non-computer experts like me end up paying NTL huge amounts of money. Why should they tell unsuspecting people.

there is the quote above... and also a warning about internet security during the registration process for broadband... both of which you have a change to read. I don't think you can say that they are keeping this quite.

If I do not get some sort of result on this, all my NTL services will be cancelled, tv, phone & broadband, which is over £100 per month.

As far as I am concerned, they failed to inform me, the customer, of this potential hazard, as a result they are demanding over £360. GREAT SERVICE!!

Most problems with viruses/ spyware/ etc is caused by lack of education on the part of computer owners, so get yourself a firewall, antivirus and sypware checker and shuld keep yourself safe. IMHO if people don't do that then they deserve any viruses/ spyware that they get!

[threadbare]

Originally Posted by marc

There are 39 different numbers, all within a 6 day period.

I can see where you are coming from with regards that I installed software & it's therefore my responsablilty, but the software did not make any references that it would dial these numbers.

I did not dial the numbers, my computer did, send the bill to my computer!!

NTL will keep this scam quiet for as long as they can, after all, non-computer experts like me end up paying NTL huge amounts of money. Why should they tell unsuspecting people.

If I do not get some sort of result on this, all my NTL services will be cancelled, tv, phone & broadband, which is over £100 per month.

As far as I am concerned, they failed to inform me, the customer, of this potential hazard, as a result they are demanding over £360. GREAT SERVICE!!

no you are paying these dialler companies huge sums of money - ntl will have already paid them - you are just paying them back for the phone service that you have been using.

you have my sympathy i know many ppl who have been caught by it.

if the dialler software did not prominately state they were idalling premium numbers then you have case with ICSTIS. the best u can hope for is that they are banned from operating in the uk and maybe ICSTIS will fine them. chances are your will still have to pay your bill but it is worth a shot...

edit it is a scam but not ntl's!

[Neil]

Originally Posted by marc

<snip>

Marc-Do you have any of the following? (if so, what so you have in specific?)

1) A firewall.

2) Anti-virus software.

3) Spyware removing software?

4) A router?

[chambece]

Originally Posted by Neil

Marc-Do you have any of the following? (if so, what so you have in specific?)

1) A firewall.

2) Anti-virus software.

3) Spyware removing software?

4) A router?

Unfortunatly, I know what you're saying, but I actually wonder if any of these would have helped in this instance, as the firewall will probs still let the connection be dialed, it not be recognised as a virus, an perhaps only flagged by the spyware - if it is purely a dialer, then I'd probs say there's no spyware there, certainly it'd be malware, but .....