Black in spirit?

[Russ]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...ic/3283479.stm

So you can forget it if you're 'white in spirit'....good job that wasn't the criteria for 'Popstars' then isn't it! Wouldn't want any nasty racists involved

I can see what they mean about 'black in spirit', but can you imagine the furore if a band had advertised for members saying 'you can be any colour as long as you're white in spirit'.

Of course, any sensible person would understand 'black in spirit' and 'white in spirit' in the same way - having an empathy for the cultural influences that produce a particular musical sound.

However I'm expecting the mad apologists of the race relations industry to fall upon this thread shortly and deny it.

[aliferste]

Originally Posted by towny

Of course, any sensible person would understand 'black in spirit' and 'white in spirit' in the same way - having an empathy for the cultural influences that produce a particular musical sound.

In a society where white people have all the power, i kinda think that saying something is "white in spirit" is entirely different from what they mean!!

Originally Posted by towny

However I'm expecting the mad apologists of the race relations industry to fall upon this thread shortly and deny it.

When they get here......lets beat em up

[kronas]

Originally Posted by Russ D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...ic/3283479.stm

So you can forget it if you're 'white in spirit'....good job that wasn't the criteria for 'Popstars' then isn't it! Wouldn't want any nasty racists involved

really russ you have just blown an issue way out of proportion they are an R&B group the women's version of the group will make R&B music as well with R&B you need certain types of voices black and white voices are diffarent and every singers voice suits a diffarent style of music

Originally Posted by aliferste

In a society where white people have all the power, i kinda think that saying something is "white in spirit" is entirely different from what they mean!!

Of course, taking someone's words and cheerfully ascribing them a different meaning, even when the intended meaning is abundantly clear, is a perfectly legitimate tactic for the race relations industry.

Are you really saying that to ask for someone 'white in spirit' would be somehow inherently racist simply because 'white' is the ethnic majority in the UK?

Originally Posted by aliferste

When they get here......lets beat em up

I would never kick off on someone just 'cos I disagree with them.

Is this about people making good music?Is this about people of any creed or colour making good music?I hope so.

As for the idea that only black people can make a certain 'black sound' is simply not true.I can remember when US radio stations were amazed to discover that Rod Stuart was actually white,because they thought he sounded black.

Again it's back to refusing to deal in stereotyping .

Anyway what the feck IS white music?ALL of todays modern music has it's roots in the gospel/blues and Rythm and Blues which developed out of the slavery culture of the US.

Incog.

[aliferste]

Originally Posted by towny

Are you really saying that to ask for someone 'white in spirit' would be somehow inherently racist simply because 'white' is the ethnic majority in the UK?

You see, I see it along the lines of this.

lets say in the police you have a "black policemans" group. Now people start to complain and say....why do we not have a "white policemans" group.
Well....the reason the black policemans group started was because the black policeman have been discriminated against and they could do with a bit of moral support from each other, even talk about situations they have been in to make future situations easier..

So what is the point of a white policemans group??


So basically......saying that they want someone "black in spirit" is almost like saying....someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even.

Why would you need or want a white only organisation or group............to exclude black people??? Well that has been going on for years anyway!!


Im not sure i explained that very well!!

Originally Posted by aliferste

You see, I see it along the lines of this.

lets say in the police you have a "black policemans" group. Now people start to complain and say....why do we not have a "white policemans" group.
Well....the reason the black policemans group started was because the black policeman have been discriminated against and they could do with a bit of moral support from each other, even talk about situations they have been in to make future situations easier..

So what is the point of a white policemans group??


So basically......saying that they want someone "black in spirit" is almost like saying....someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even.

Why would you need or want a white only organisation or group............to exclude black people??? Well that has been going on for years anyway!!


Im not sure i explained that very well!!

no you explained it very well indeed.

the trouble is that most people of white persuasion are terrified of talking or addressing black issues because they feel they are going to say or do the wrong thing.the results is that we never really get a really good healthy discussion because it makes us uncomfortable.

Incog.

[aliferste]

Originally Posted by Incognitas

the trouble is that most people of white persuasion are terrified of talking or addressing black issues because they feel they are going to say or do the wrong thing.the results is that we never really get a really good healthy discussion because it makes us uncomfortable.

Incog.

We have some fabulous healthy discussions on this board Incog.......well ...actually some of them dip down into the unhealthy but hey ...I deal with bad situations every day... and people can hide behind internet monickers so they can say what they want

Hmmmm......what am i saying??? This is the best place to ask daft questions maybe?

Originally Posted by aliferste

You see, I see it along the lines of this.

lets say in the police you have a "black policemans" group. Now people start to complain and say....why do we not have a "white policemans" group.
Well....the reason the black policemans group started was because the black policeman have been discriminated against and they could do with a bit of moral support from each other, even talk about situations they have been in to make future situations easier..

So what is the point of a white policemans group??


So basically......saying that they want someone "black in spirit" is almost like saying....someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even.

Why would you need or want a white only organisation or group............to exclude black people??? Well that has been going on for years anyway!!


Im not sure i explained that very well!!

I think I get you, although I also think you started off by making an illustration and then got your illustration confused with the original 'contentious' point.

The folks that advertised for someone 'black in spirit' may well have meant, as you said, "someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even."

However, if that's the case, it would be entirely reasonable for a white group to advertise for someone 'white in spirit' - they could be black, white or whatever, so long as it's, to borrow your words again, "someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even." This is clearly not racist.

However in your illustration you finished up by asking about whites-only organisations. This is a completely different issue. The group in Russ' post are not forming a black-only group; my theoretical advert posted by whites is not forming a 'whites only' group. Both groups are simply asking for, as you put it, "someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even." Thus far, this is not racist. However, I fear there are some who would still see it as so.

[aliferste]

Originally Posted by towny

my theoretical advert posted by whites is not forming a 'whites only' group. Both groups are simply asking for, as you put it, "someone that they can relate to, someone that follows their ideals even." Thus far, this is not racist. However, I fear there are some who would still see it as so.

But then if they advertised for someone that upheld the "white spirit"....what exactly would that be? Basically the only reason they have "black spirit" is because of whites oppression.


So if they said......we want someone that will uphld the spirit of "Whites" it would be a group of people that oppressed black people.

Basically all i want to do is make it clear why it is fundamentally ok for black people to talk about "black power" and "black spirit" when you have had to fight for every last wee bit. But not ok to talk about "white spirit" or "white power" when our society is based on people who are white having more power. In fact not just in the UK but in the World.

In the World white people are the ethnic minority but they hold the most power.

[aliferste]

Originally Posted by Russ D

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertain...ic/3283479.stm

So you can forget it if you're 'white in spirit'....good job that wasn't the criteria for 'Popstars' then isn't it! Wouldn't want any nasty racists involved

I would SWEAR you do this to bait me

[Russ]

Originally Posted by aliferste

I would SWEAR you do this to bait me

And I could say the same right back at you

Originally Posted by aliferste

But then if they advertised for someone that upheld the "white spirit"....what exactly would that be? Basically the only reason they have "black spirit" is because of whites oppression.

This is deeply unfair and patronizing towards black people. How can you say that several entire cultures (there being several shades of black in the world) are defined only by their oppression at the hands of whites? You have completely swept thousands of years of their tradition and belief under the carpet.

And even if it were the case that 'black spirit' is defined entirely by their oppression, it is quite ludicrous to suggest that 'white spirit' must therefore be defined entirely by their being oppressors. This also is a hopelessly reductionist view of history, ignoring vast amounts of tradition and culture that have absolutely nothing to do with opressing black people.

If you attempt to champion the cause of oppressed races by over-simplifying the history of the entire world, you do yourself, and those you wish to help, a great disservice.

[aliferste]

Originally Posted by towny

This is deeply unfair and patronizing towards black people. How can you say that several entire cultures (there being several shades of black in the world) are defined only by their oppression at the hands of whites? You have completely swept thousands of years of their tradition and belief under the carpet.

And even if it were the case that 'black spirit' is defined entirely by their oppression, it is quite ludicrous to suggest that 'white spirit' must therefore be defined entirely by their being oppressors. This also is a hopelessly reductionist view of history, ignoring vast amounts of tradition and culture that have absolutely nothing to do with opressing black people.

If you attempt to champion the cause of oppressed races by over-simplifying the history of the entire world, you do yourself, and those you wish to help, a great disservice.

Im sorry, I was talking about "black spirit" in terms of oppresion. The original poster was talking about being "white in spirit" and i was discussing it in those terms.

Interesting what you say about sweeping thousands of years of tradition under the carpet....whch is entirely what white have traditionally have done. Which is why black people now try and claw something back!