[Update] The UK votes to leave the EU

Osem · 24-05-2015, 12:11

Having lied about giving us one, signed away more of our powers to Europe and opposed the notion of an in/out referendum for so very long, Labour are now suddenly in favour apparently. Yes, now they're out of office, they've suddenly decided it's the right thing to do and this change of heart has nothing whatsoever to do with a cynical attempt at face saving.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32863749

Had they won the election, in spite of what Harman claims they 'heard on the doorsteps', I doubt very much they'd have given two hoots for what they now 'accept' the people want but there we are. Say one thing, do another is in their DNA...

Anyway, I just hope this isn't going to turn into a replay of the Scottish referendum. This is a massively important issue and we need good clear information on which to base our decisions. I want to hear the arguments for and against properly articulated, without the sort of pathetic hysteria we've heard from those opposed to change who'd have us believe that life outside the EU could only be catastrophic. Equally I don't want us to be fooled into thinking that leaving would be a panacea for all our ills.

Sirius · 24-05-2015, 12:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem

Having lied about giving us one, signed away more of our powers to Europe and opposed the notion of an in/out referendum for so very long, Labour are now suddenly in favour apparently. Yes, now they're out of office, they've suddenly decided it's the right thing to do and this change of heart has nothing whatsoever to do with a cynical attempt at face saving.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-32863749

Had they won the election, in spite of what Harman claims they 'heard on the doorsteps', I doubt very much they'd have given two hoots for what they now 'accept' the people want but there we are. Say one thing, do another is in their DNA...

Anyway, I just hope this isn't going to turn into a replay of the Scottish referendum. This is a massively important issue and we need good clear information on which to base our decisions. I want to hear the arguments for and against properly articulated, without the sort of pathetic hysteria we've heard from those opposed to change who'd have us believe that life outside the EU could only be catastrophic. Equally I don't want us to be fooled into thinking that leaving would be a panacea for all our ills.

This will be the first of many U turns they will do to try and con there way back into power at the next election.

Ignitionnet · 24-05-2015, 13:17

Unfortunate sign of how cynical we all are about politicians that, when they do give the impression of listening to us, we think they are just changing tack to try and win power.

My biggest issues with Labour revolve around their illiberal 'We know best' attitude and their tendency to think they can change everything for everyone from Westminster.

Their manifesto's commitments to devolution showed some signs that they are slowly but surely 'getting it' as far as democracy in the Internet age goes.

Let's hope that they carry this on. We need strong, effective opposition.

Taf · 24-05-2015, 13:25

The rise of UKIP has shown the other parties that a lot of the population wants out of the EU, or major reforms, especially when it comes to uncontrolled migration.

So they change their spots to appear to be listening.

I doubt we will get a referendum though, Cameron will just announce that he has been successful in bringing about change in some way or another.

denphone · 24-05-2015, 13:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ignitionnet

Unfortunate sign of how cynical we all are about politicians that, when they do give the impression of listening to us, we think they are just changing tack to try and win power.

My biggest issues with Labour revolve around their illiberal 'We know best' attitude and their tendency to think they can change everything for everyone from Westminster.

Their manifesto's commitments to devolution showed some signs that they are slowly but surely 'getting it' as far as democracy in the Internet age goes.

Let's hope that they carry this on. We need strong, effective opposition.

This.

Ignitionnet · 24-05-2015, 14:11

Somewhat the UKIP effect, but probably also realising that the public were quite offended by the arrogance of Labour saying 'We know best, we should stay in the EU, you shouldn't have a referendum.'

Labour's traditional way of operating, changing things at the top, centralised decision making, very much 'we know best' doesn't work any more. Good.

denphone · 24-05-2015, 14:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

This will be the first of many U turns they will do to try and con there way back into power at the next election.

Nothing wrong with them changing your mind as l am sure many of us do in our own lives from time to time as sometimes its important to listen and learn.

Gary L · 24-05-2015, 14:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sirius

This will be the first of many U turns they will do to try and con there way back into power at the next election.

Er. Vote Labour!

---------- Post added at 14:34 ---------- Previous post was at 14:33 ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf

I doubt we will get a referendum though, Cameron will just announce that he has been successful in bringing about change in some way or another.

And that's what his whole intention is and was before he promised the referendum.

Osem · 24-05-2015, 14:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone

Nothing wrong with them changing your mind as l am sure many of us do in our own lives from time to time as sometimes its important to listen and learn.

True - there is a big problem with politicians saying one thing and doing the other however, especially just before and after elections. They really can't blame people for treating them with incredulity - when they start being honest and consistent they'll get the trust they deserve and they'll have earnt it.

Sirius · 24-05-2015, 16:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by denphone

Nothing wrong with them changing your mind as l am sure many of us do in our own lives from time to time as sometimes its important to listen and learn.

They have not changed my mind at all

Ramrod · 24-05-2015, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Osem

This is a massively important issue and we need good clear information on which to base our decisions. I want to hear the arguments for and against properly articulated, without the sort of pathetic hysteria we've heard from those opposed to change who'd have us believe that life outside the EU could only be catastrophic. Equally I don't want us to be fooled into thinking that leaving would be a panacea for all our ills.

That bears repeating

Mick Fisher · 24-05-2015, 16:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf

The rise of UKIP has shown the other parties that a lot of the population wants out of the EU, or major reforms, especially when it comes to uncontrolled migration.

So they change their spots to appear to be listening.

I doubt we will get a referendum though, Cameron will just announce that he has been successful in bringing about change in some way or another.

Absolutely!

Probably why he announced he would not be standing for a further term.

Pierre · 24-05-2015, 17:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf

I doubt we will get a referendum though, Cameron will just announce that he has been successful in bringing about change in some way or another.

We will. Cameron has to do the deals to try to appease the voters to vote to stay in. But he committed to the referendum, it will happen.

Sirius · 24-05-2015, 19:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pierre

We will. Cameron has to do the deals to try to appease the voters to vote to stay in. But he committed to the referendum, it will happen.

I agree it will happen but Cameron will lie through his back teeth to ensure 100% that we stay in. As for concessions from our masters in Brussels, they will give us a little bit here and a little bit there but in the end it will costs us far more than it does now.

I already now what i will vote and that's "get us to hell OUT"

**Chris** · 24-05-2015, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Taf

The rise of UKIP has shown the other parties that a lot of the population wants out of the EU, or major reforms, especially when it comes to uncontrolled migration.

So they change their spots to appear to be listening.

I doubt we will get a referendum though, Cameron will just announce that he has been successful in bringing about change in some way or another.

I don't think many people seriously think this referendum isn't now going to happen.

It was a key election pledge which several ministers, including Cameron, have reaffirmed since the election.