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POE issue
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Old 23-09-2011, 00:15   #1
alanf
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POE issue

Hi all,
I've just found the strangest problem I've ever encountered, and I am completely out of ideas. I'm hoping someone here can help me out

I've got a wireless antenna that I'm installing in a factory to improve wireless coverage. For the record, it's a UniFI AP. I'm using a UniFI 24VDC 0.5A power over ethernet adaptor to power it. I have proved this unit on the bench - all the settings are OK, it connects as it should, no issues whatsoever when I put it together on the bench.

In the field, what I've got is an ethernet switch at ground level, and the antenna up near the roof, with a 25m (80ft) run of CAT5E cable. I've plugged a patch cable from the switch into the POE adaptor in the ethernet switchboard, and my 25m cable then runs from the POE in the board up to the antenna. The antenna powers up and does it's self check, and the "I'm a happy antenna" light comes on, and you can connect to it with a wireless device, e.g. my iPad. However, the antenna can't connect to the network. So although my iPad is connected to the wireless signal, I can't join the network, and on the switch, there's no lights come on (not even the green "I've got something plugged into me" light). I thought maybe the port on the switch is dodgy, but I tried other ports, including ones that I know to work, because they were in service at the time. I even tried a different switch entirely. Same result.
I thought, obviously I've got a dodgy cable, and the power cores are OK, but the data cores are not. But they all meter out fine, at exactly the same resistance - there's no crossovers, shorted cores, etc. I thought that maybe 25m was too long a run for voltage drop considerations etc, although it seemed unlikely as the device powered up fine, just like it did on the bench, the signal is strong, I can connect to it, etc etc. But to test both these theories out, I ran a power lead all the way up to the switch so I could use the POE adaptor close by. So now what I've got is my 25m run plugged straight into the switch, carrying just the network up to the POE adaptor. I've then got the patch lead plugged from the POE adaptor to the antenna. Same two cables, just the other one now has the power. This way, it worked. So I know now that the data cores in both cables are intact and fine. Must be just the length over which I'm trying to run the power, I thought. I rang the supplier, and he said he'd never heard of this happening. He says he's run the POE three times the length I'm running it with no issues whatsoever. So I figured maybe the POE adaptor or the wireless antenna were at fault. I tried different ones of both - same result. When the power is on the long cable, power but no network; when the power is on the short cable, no issues. I decided it must therefore be the length or installation conditions of the cable run. Both seemed unlikely, as the run is the best run I've seen in the whole factory - it goes nowhere near any power cables, and the supplier said he'd run way further than me. But I was out of likely options, so I started on the unlikely ones. I remembered that when I'd run the cable, I'd cable tied it to another ethernet cable that was plugged into the same switch. i traced it out and found that it followed exactly the same route - mine was cable tied to it all the way, except for where mine terminated in the antenna, the other one ran another 10m to another device. So I figured, if there are any issue with length, or interference, or installation conditions, that cable will have it exactly the same - or even worse, because it goes that extra bit further, and it's an older, cheaper style of cable. So I ran patch lead from switch to POE, and the long lead from POE to antenna. It worked without a hitch.

So by now, my only conclusion is that despite my cable metering out ok, and being able to transmit both power and data, it for some reason can't do it at the same time even though one exactly the same can, therefore my cable must be the culprit. I cut the plugs of both ends and very carefully re-fitted - same result. So I ran in a new cable. High quality CAT6 this time, just to be sure. The result was the same - still power but no network, although once again it worked fine if I used the short cable for the power. I dragged the cable all the way back to the ethernet switchboard, so now all I've got is a 25m patch lead coiled up at my feet. No chance of interference. (Also, as the engineer suggested, no issues with the smoke not being able to run uphill). Still no network. And still, not even a green light on the switch to say "I've got something plugged into me". So (and I have no idea what posessed me to try this), I switched ends on the long cable. I.e., the end that was in the switchboard plugged into the POE adaptor, I now plugged into the antenna, and the end that had been up near the roof in the antenna, I now plugged into the POE adaptor.

It worked.

Repeatably.

As much as I tried to wiggle plugs, bend cables, and generally make life hard for the signal to get through, it was flawless. And no matter how many times I switch the ends back and forth, it always works instantly one way, and never works the other.

has anybody ever seen this before? Can anyone suggest anything?

Other information, in case it's relevant:

My connection sequence in the plugs is:
1-white/green
2-green
3-white/orange
4-blue
5-white/blue
6-orange
7-white/brown
8-brown

This matches up with all the patch leads I've ever seen, and conforms to the T568A standard.

The POE adaptor uses pins 4&5 for positive, 7&8 for negative.

I'm out of likely ideas, I'm out of unlikely ideas, at the stage I'm even out of ridiculous ideas. So any ideas, however ridiculous, are welcome
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Old 23-09-2011, 13:48   #2
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Re: POE issue

Not made clear in your posting but how long is the RF cable from the actual aerial to what I assume is some form of access point.
WiFi runs at 2.4GHz and unless you are using very expensive good coax (Andrew's Heliax) then you will lose a huge amount of signal over a few yards of a cable run.
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Old 23-09-2011, 17:32   #3
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Re: POE issue

Except an older, cheaper cable over a longer distance works fine, and the same cable backwards works fine.

P.S. I'm assuming that's a passive PoE adapter and not a proper 802.3af?
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Old 26-09-2011, 03:45   #4
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Re: POE issue

The Ap I'm using is an all-in-one device - you plug your powered ethernet cable into it and it's the access point and antenna all in one. So no coax cable in the equation.

Also, the specs on this device are for POE of between 12 and 24VDC. The POE adaptor I'm using is the one that's supplied with the unit so there should be no compatibility issues there. I think it's a passive, but I'm not 100% sure. I can find out if it's relevant?
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:26   #5
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Re: POE issue

Do you know if it's using the A or B standard? Just that if A standard then it sounds like the power signal which is DC running over the top of the data signal is interfering somehow with the data. If B then they should be separate (unless running gigabit, if so then drop them down to 10/100 and see if you get the same fault).
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Old 26-09-2011, 08:42   #6
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Re: POE issue

I'm using the A standard - the POE adaptor uses the blue & white/blue wire pair for positive, and the brown & white/brown pair for negative, so there should be no issues with power being interlinked with data. The CAT6 cable has a crosstalk barrier between each pair so I don't REALLY think that crosstalk is an issue - the manufacturer agrees with me on that one, the quote I got was "Crosstalk is virtually unheard of"
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Old 26-09-2011, 09:02   #7
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Re: POE issue

By the voltage references you gave it sounds more like B standard (A standard would use pins 1&2 for DC positive), B standard uses separate voltage to data pins for 10/100 and shared data/voltage pins for gigabit. Please don't get confused with crosstalk which is a data line interfering with another data line and nothing to do with superimposing DC voltages on data lines (which simply uses DC blocking to stop the DC voltage from interfering with the data receptors).

Are you using 10/100 or gigabit? If gigabit can you drop it down to 10/100 and try again please.
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Old 26-09-2011, 09:39   #8
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Re: POE issue

ah sorry, I misunderstood you on that one. I see what you mean. The POE adaptor I'm using specifies that it uses pins 4&5 for positive, 7&8 for negative. If I've got my facts straight, whether you're using A or B standard, transmit pins are 1 & 2, and receive pins are 3 & 6. So the POE is not overlaying the data. And besides, the older style cable I used as a test was wired this same way, and IT works...

I'm pretty sure we're using 10/100 already, I'll find out and confirm...
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Old 26-09-2011, 10:19   #9
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Re: POE issue

Have a look at wikipedia for POE as that will show you the pins.. B standard uses 4/5+ and 7/8- where as A uses 1/2+ and 3/6- which overlays the data pins.

B does use data over the DC lines but only for gigabit hence my question.

---------- Post added at 10:19 ---------- Previous post was at 09:57 ----------

Sorry but another quick question.. Is the device capable of gigabit? Just that I ask as the components to separate out the data from the DC will still be there irrelevant of if the DC lines are not being used for data.
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Old 27-09-2011, 01:49   #10
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Re: POE issue

I'm not convinced that the wiki is correct on that one...my understanding from reading elsewhere is that A & B both use pins 4/5 and 7/8 for 10/100, and only gigabit connections overlay the data.

Either way, the AP is 10/100 and not gigabit capable.
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