disciplinaries in work

lostandconfused · 06-01-2007, 19:48

hi all,

just wondering if anyone could help as i dont really have a clue.

basically someone in work has been told they are going to have an investigation but it hasnt happened and he is a bit worried about it. he's nominated me as a witness to any meetings

in his orginal letter it said something about misapropration of company money, cant remember exactly it was a while ago he let me read it.
basically he cashed up his till at the end of the night, it was checked by a manger and he sealed it, logged the seal number and locked it in the safe. the next day the seal was off and money was missing from the bag.

he was told he would have an investigation meeting before it would go to a disciplinary but it has never happened, when chased up he has been told it is in the post and given loads of excuses.

is there some sort of cut off period where it has to be dealt with. he's worried about forgetting about it (like the general manager seems to have done) and then it being brought up at some future date.

i always thought it had to be dealt with and a definative outcome come by a certain time but dont know if this is true or the timescales involved

any help would be greatly appreciated

Escapee · 06-01-2007, 20:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostandconfused

hi all,

just wondering if anyone could help as i dont really have a clue.

basically someone in work has been told they are going to have an investigation but it hasnt happened and he is a bit worried about it. he's nominated me as a witness to any meetings

in his orginal letter it said something about misapropration of company money, cant remember exactly it was a while ago he let me read it.
basically he cashed up his till at the end of the night, it was checked by a manger and he sealed it, logged the seal number and locked it in the safe. the next day the seal was off and money was missing from the bag.

he was told he would have an investigation meeting before it would go to a disciplinary but it has never happened, when chased up he has been told it is in the post and given loads of excuses.

is there some sort of cut off period where it has to be dealt with. he's worried about forgetting about it (like the general manager seems to have done) and then it being brought up at some future date.

i always thought it had to be dealt with and a definative outcome come by a certain time but dont know if this is true or the timescales involved

any help would be greatly appreciated

Be very careful is all I would say.

About 18 months ago in my last place of work, I was asked to represent someone at a disciplinary hearing. The meeting was conducted with 2 company directors and the HR manager, the guy in question had filled me in all the details before the meeting. (Or so I thought)

I sat in the meeting hearing it all unfold, he was making excuses for the reasons of booking overtime on days he wasn't even at work, booking overtime when he was off sick, being off sick and claiming on his timesheet he was in work etc. Claiming money for a college course that he never paid for and never attended. The amount that he had fiddled ran into a few thousand pounds.

I felt like an idiot, after the meeting I went to one of the directors and told him how I felt. The HR manager was also there and they both sympathised with my situation, after I explained I had a completely different story.

After the disciplinary the guy seemed to stay out of my way, then I heard him going around telling people he was going to take the company to court because they told him in the meeting they would be meeting with him in a weeks time to come to a conclusion. I knew that no such claim was made, and I got a call from the HR and directors again who asked me if I agreed they had said words to this affect.

fortunately for me, they knew my stance on the matter. I had told them I would of refused to come and represent the guy if I had been told the full story. The end result as it usually is, the guy is still working for the company. That's because companies seem so damn scared of going to a tribunal and losing these days, so even if they have cast iron evidence they will let the person off even if they have followed all the procedures etc.

Steer well clear unless you think the guy really innocent and is being treated unfairly.

lostandconfused · 06-01-2007, 20:15

thanks for your quick reply. to be honest i'd never even thought about that.

i dont think it would have gone as far as disciplinary, the till was checked by a manager and there were people there when it was locked in the safe so it was taken sometime after that before the next morning.

might have to have a chat with the GM to see if there is anything he hasnt told me, for all i know it could be something a lot worse and it is still being investigated.

cheers

Fawkes · 06-01-2007, 22:36

This site www.emplaw.co.uk is the one I use for all the employment law stuff at work. The quoted section below is relevant to your colleague:

Quote:

From 1st October 2004, the Employment Act 2002 combined with the Employment Act 2002 (Dispute Resolution) Regulations 2004 SI 2004/752 introduce new statutory minimum procedures for regulating dismissal (and also disciplinary and grievance) procedures. The rules also provide for sanctions if the specified minimum procedures are not followed - a dismissal will be automatically unfair if the employer did not adhere to, at least, the minimum specified procedures (assuming of course that the employee had sufficient continuous employment to qualify) and any compensatory award which a tribunal orders the employer to pay will be increased by between 10% and 50%. Similarly employees who fail to follow the required procedures if they have a grievance against their employer will face a reduction in the compensation they might otherwise be awarded (see generally Disciplinary procedures/2004 new regulations ).

Where the statutory minimum procedures noted above apply, the timing and location of the meetings they require must be reasonable, both parties must be allowed to explain their case and a more senior manager should handle any appeal hearing, if reasonably practicable. Employees are entitled to be accompanied by a companion to most meetings (see notes at Disciplinary procedures/Right to be accompanied ). Provided the employee had clocked up sufficient continuous employment with the employer (currently one year but see Qualifying periods of service for rights/unfair dismissal for details) a failure properly to observe the procedures will lead to a finding of automatic unfair dismissal plus also an increase of 10% to 50% in compensatory award.

Compliance with the new statutory procedures does not mean that a dismissal is bound to be procedurally fair. Thus if an employer dismisses an employee in compliance with the new statutory rules but in breach of its own internal procedures, a tribunal will decide whether the dismissal was or was not unfair under normal general principles (see Unfair dismissal/fair or unfair? ). For an example of a case in which a dismissal was held to be fair even though the employer had not strictly followed its own internal disciplinary procedures before dismissing an employee (in this case for being absent from work without permission) see Morris v Freightliner Ltd, EAT on 16th July 2001

All employers must observe the statutory minimum procedures after 1st October 2004. There is no small employer exemption from the new procedural rules, although the size of an employer's undertaking may of course still be relevant in deciding whether a dismissal was unfair - see notes at Small Employers/a general introductory note .

Chris W · 07-01-2007, 00:54

There is no requirement for written notice of an investigation.

An investigation is simply a meeting to assertain facts. The employer and employee are both entitled to have witnesses present if they chose.

What the parties say in the meeting is recorded and both parties then sign to agree that what is written is a true record of what was said. Both the company witness and employee witness do not speak during the witness and are merely present for verification [although commonly the company witness will be the person recording the meeting].

The information obtained in the investigation and any other evidence will then be evaluated and then disciplinary proceedings may or may not go ahead. If a disciplinary hearing does take place written notice (at least 7 days iirc) is required. The employee is required to attend, and if he/she doesn't a second meeting will be scheduled. If again he/she doesn't attend a third meeting will be scheduled but in the event of the employees no attendance the hearing will be held in his/ her absence.

That said, the investigation in itself is nothing to worry about.

Xaccers · 07-01-2007, 01:27

It could simply be that they are investigating other avenues first and can't rule him out, but he's low down on their suspects.

Pia · 07-01-2007, 11:48

It's the manager's problem, they signed it.

ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£2,000 went missing from where i work once but nothing ever came of it. Everytime something gets lost or stolen they throw the 'investigation' word around to scare people but they never actually make it come to anything.
They have to be careful i guess as they can't go round accusing people of theft.

If it was me i'd go to the manager and casually say, 'so whatever happened to that investigation?! Did the money tunr up in the end, etc etc

TheNorm · 07-01-2007, 12:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Escapee

... The end result as it usually is, the guy is still working for the company. That's because companies seem so damn scared of going to a tribunal and losing these days, so even if they have cast iron evidence they will let the person off even if they have followed all the procedures etc.....

Or, they didn't have enough evidence to sack him this time, but wanted to "scare" him to make sure it wouldn't happen again.

Escapee · 07-01-2007, 14:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheNorm

Or, they didn't have enough evidence to sack him this time, but wanted to "scare" him to make sure it wouldn't happen again.

They certainly had enough evidence and his admission, he basically turned around in the disciplinary meeting and told them it was their fault for paying him without checking if he was trying to rob them or not.

Although it was the first time I have been directly involved in a disciplinary meeting, I did have a small insight/involvement in two cases in ntl. In the one case a guy had ordered a lot of equipment for his own use, again fraud running into thousands of pounds. It was unfortunately another case of HR screwing up where someone had committed gross misconduct.

When someone goes to the purchasing department when his both bosses are away on more than one occassion, and tells them a pack of lies about an item needed urgently to keep customers on service, but it's something for personal use instant sacking should be the outcome.

In the other ntl case, the guy went on long term sick to avoid the disciplinary action, in this instance he managed to go off sick (stress if I recall) and ntl paid him for about 2 years before they settled with redundancy.

There was also a third case where a manager was caught on the fiddle, he was suspended on full pay for over a year, HR screwed up by cancelling the meetings, the guys solicitor started court proceedings against ntl and ntl settled out of court with a 6 figure sum.

The majority of cases I have knowledge of like these, were badly handled due to HR department incompetence.

Vlad_Dracul · 07-01-2007, 19:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostandconfused

hi all,

just wondering if anyone could help as i dont really have a clue.

basically someone in work has been told they are going to have an investigation but it hasnt happened and he is a bit worried about it. he's nominated me as a witness to any meetings

in his orginal letter it said something about misapropration of company money, cant remember exactly it was a while ago he let me read it.
basically he cashed up his till at the end of the night, it was checked by a manger and he sealed it, logged the seal number and locked it in the safe. the next day the seal was off and money was missing from the bag.

he was told he would have an investigation meeting before it would go to a disciplinary but it has never happened, when chased up he has been told it is in the post and given loads of excuses.

is there some sort of cut off period where it has to be dealt with. he's worried about forgetting about it (like the general manager seems to have done) and then it being brought up at some future date.

i always thought it had to be dealt with and a definative outcome come by a certain time but dont know if this is true or the timescales involved

any help would be greatly appreciated

I find myself in the position of having to represent various colleagues at informal chats or more formal investigations. If its going to be formal i normally have an off the record chat with the "accused" to discover the real truth. This is to ensure the best advice and also so that i dont get any surprises when a manager lobs some evidence on the desk that i dont know about. It is sometimes the case that the "accused" will not even confide the full scale of his wrongdoing to his representative and this only comes to light in the investigation. I always find it wise to gather all the facts from both sides before deciding the position i am going to take.

As in this case, they seem to be accusing this person of a criminal offence, it might be a good idea to check whether they feel it is appropriate to report the offence to the Police. If this isnt the case and they say not, then it weakens any case for any unofficial investigation.

If you are not a recognised TU rep, then you could be putting yourself in a difficult position by representing this person.

Also if you have insufficient experience, then the company could use you to facilitate any action against this person, i.e company procedures might say that a person can have a witness/rep, you have stepped up to do it,so they can proceed. Perhaps they would not be so ready to proceed if there were no rep/witness available? It swings both ways though-he could have had his hand in the till. Impartiality is the name of the game.

lostandconfused · 08-01-2007, 20:39

hi all thanks for your replies, have spoken to the GM today to get both sides of the story, they have done their investigation and found there were no charges to be answered. apparently they sent a letter but it hasnt been recieved,.
a copy is in the post now, i think in furture im gona stay well away from this sort of thing!

SMHarman · 08-01-2007, 23:36

People need people in these instances. I dont think you should automatically stay away, just make sure you are comfortable with who you represent and have a comfort they are being honest with you.

Mrs H had to go through one of these, the fact that person she asked to support her was more senior and well regarded within the firm certainly added credibility to her case.

Similar to the above case, most of the problems they were pushing on her they ultimatly had to drop as there was manager approval of everything. Probably the reason they decided no case to answer in the OPs case.

Chris W · 09-01-2007, 01:07

If you are a witness to an investigation you aren't representing anyone! I don't see why everyone is making such a big deal of this.

Where i work, if one of my staff has a cash variance on a till of over ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£3 (in a till that might contain >ÃƒÆ’Ã¢â‚¬Å¡Ãƒâ€šÃ‚Â£5k) they are investigated. If they are 10minutes late for work they are investigated. If they don't follow the absence reporting procedure they are investigated. An investigation is nothing to worry about but simply a process that has to be followed to establish facts.

emilia2003 · 14-05-2011, 10:41

Hi All,

I Hope someone can guide here.

My colleague at work recently went 'absent' from work giving an excuse about car trouble.

It then emerged that that wasn't true.

He has since told the truth that it was for a funeral which he hadn't mentioned to any line manager.

He is being disciplined.

What type of punishment can he get?

LondonRoad · 14-05-2011, 10:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by emilia2003

Hi All,

I Hope someone can guide here.

My colleague at work recently went 'absent' from work giving an excuse about car trouble.

It then emerged that that wasn't true.

He has since told the truth that it was for a funeral which he hadn't mentioned to any line manager.

He is being disciplined.

What type of punishment can he get?

It depends on his previous record. That on it's own may merit a written warning but if he's had previous warnings it could be more serious.