Justice - Time for a rethink?

[eddie00001]

Just having a browse through the news this morning and came across two different articles where people have been fined for 2 different offences.

The first is a man who was fined £200 for putting paper in the wrong recycling bag (no-one seen him do it, but council officials on inspecting the bag found junk mail with his name/address on it).
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_west/6058952.stm

The next is a man fine £300 and 7 penelty points for hitting a car and killing the driver. At the time the car was in the cetre reservation after being involved in an earlier crash. The van driver, travelling over 70mph hit the car as he was driving too fast to see it. Had he been going under 70mph he would have probably avoided the car.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2006480313,00.html

So, looking at this, a human life is worth only slightly more than an incorrectly discarded bit of paper.

[injuneer]

Yes, it's strange that the attitude towards motoring offences invariably tends to be on the side of leniency, even where it's evident an offence was committed. Half the time the people who commit the offences shouldn't be on the road at all, no tax, no insurance, drunk and they still get a light sentence!
We must value our right to drive more than someone's life.

[eddie00001]

I also think how the courts in the case (1st link) convicted the man despite there being no eye witness, just the word of the council that the letter was found in the wrong bag. Not only does the first case seem heavy handed in its outcome, the weight given to the prosecution seems too much. As a result, the guy now has no intention of recycling, dumps all his rubbish in one bin, so avoids this reoccuring. Mind you, this is what I do - don't bother to recycle as if I get it wrong, I'll be hit with an excessive fine, whereas just dump it all in a regular bin, all goes away no questions asked (but that's another topic)

[injuneer]

Originally Posted by eddie00001

I also think how the courts in the case (1st link) convicted the man despite there being no eye witness, just the word of the council that the letter was found in the wrong bag. Not only does the first case seem heavy handed in its outcome, the weight given to the prosecution seems too much. As a result, the guy now has no intention of recycling, dumps all his rubbish in one bin, so avoids this reoccuring. Mind you, this is what I do - don't bother to recycle as if I get it wrong, I'll be hit with an excessive fine, whereas just dump it all in a regular bin, all goes away no questions asked (but that's another topic)

My neighbour had the council round because they had found his address in some fly tipped rubbish. He just denied any knowledge of it and they didn't press it any further. But knowing a family friend (of a dodgy disposition and a large truck) had "disposed" of some rubbish for him recently, he's probably guilty.

[lauzjp]

I really don't see why councils can't make use of people doing community service or something - get them to sort through the 'contaminated' recycling? I'D do it!

[eddie00001]

I think the cases above highlight just 3 problems with our justice system

1. How soft a sentance you get through causing the death of someone while in a car

2. How tough a sentance you can get for a very minor infraction of the law

3. How in such minor cases too much weight is given to the prosecution, even where there is no real evidence. In the case above, there was no witnesses to show that the defendant contaminated the recycling - and has now resulted in one person no longer recycling their rubbish and possibly others who don't want to fall victim to this.

However, had a shredded his letter as recommended, to prevent ID theft, then the council would not have been able to have found him and prosecuted him. So maybe the lesson here is, not only should you shred all info that could ID you to prevent ID theft, but also so councils that have nothing better to do (ie prevent anti-social behaviour, improve social ammenitites etc) can prosecute pointless cases.

[TheDaddy]

Originally Posted by eddie00001

1. How soft a sentance you get through causing the death of someone while in a car

2. How tough a sentance you can get for a very minor infraction of the law

So maybe the lesson here is, not only should you shred all info that could ID you to prevent ID theft, but also so councils that have nothing better to do (ie prevent anti-social behaviour, improve social ammenitites etc) can prosecute pointless cases.

Surely the lessons are don't fly tip and if you want to commit murder you'd be better of using a car than a gun

[eddie00001]

That's true. Wonder why more people don't kill their lovers, business partners, people they just don't like etc with a car. Just find where they are, speed into them and drive off. Stop the car, down a bottle of vodka (or something similar) and await the police. Slap on the wrist and you're free to go.

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by injuneer

My neighbour had the council round because they had found his address in some fly tipped rubbish. He just denied any knowledge of it and they didn't press it any further. But knowing a family friend (of a dodgy disposition and a large truck) had "disposed" of some rubbish for him recently, he's probably guilty.

Similar to what I did, we can't get a skip lorry up the street since the council decided to remove the double yellow lines. I got the local gypsy's in with their transit tipper and they did 3 trips.

I don't give a s**t where they dumped it, I was prepared to pay almost 3 times what they charged me to have the rubbish removed legally, if I am unable to though why should I care.

I rang the council and informed them exactly what I had done, and told them where I thought the rubbish would probably end up. I was in fact hoping they would persue me over it, but they dont seem that interested in fly tipping.

I will probably have another skips worth of rubbish to get rid of in a few time, I'm not wasting a day off work to book a skip that may or may not be able to get to my house, so gypsy's are the answer.

[injuneer]

Originally Posted by Escapee

Similar to what I did, we can't get a skip lorry up the street since the council decided to remove the double yellow lines. I got the local gypsy's in with their transit tipper and they did 3 trips.

I don't give a s**t where they dumped it, I was prepared to pay almost 3 times what they charged me to have the rubbish removed legally, if I am unable to though why should I care.

I rang the council and informed them exactly what I had done, and told them where I thought the rubbish would probably end up. I was in fact hoping they would persue me over it, but they dont seem that interested in fly tipping.

I will probably have another skips worth of rubbish to get rid of in a few time, I'm not wasting a day off work to book a skip that may or may not be able to get to my house, so gypsy's are the answer.

I'll be frank and say that I am shocked by your admission and also shocked by your local council's attitude. They are very hot on it where I live.
Did you see Rogue Traders this week? There was a country lane in Kent that was blocked for about 30 yards of its length with building rubble, it wasn't just dumped by the side but right in the middle! Nice meeting that lot on a dark night whilst driving. Of course we pick up the bill to clear it up in our council tax.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by eddie00001

I also think how the courts in the case (1st link) convicted the man despite there being no eye witness, just the word of the council that the letter was found in the wrong bag. Not only does the first case seem heavy handed in its outcome, the weight given to the prosecution seems too much. As a result, the guy now has no intention of recycling, dumps all his rubbish in one bin, so avoids this reoccuring. Mind you, this is what I do - don't bother to recycle as if I get it wrong, I'll be hit with an excessive fine, whereas just dump it all in a regular bin, all goes away no questions asked (but that's another topic)

He's also a reporter for the main evening newspaper in the Swansea and surrounding areas - they've given this case loads of publicity and I'm sure it'll lead to many more people refusing to recycle in case it happens to them.

[me283]

Originally Posted by injuneer

Yes, it's strange that the attitude towards motoring offences invariably tends to be on the side of leniency, even where it's evident an offence was committed. Half the time the people who commit the offences shouldn't be on the road at all, no tax, no insurance, drunk and they still get a light sentence!
We must value our right to drive more than someone's life.

I'm not sure that all motoring offences are treated leniently. In fact, a lot of them are heavily penalised. But the fact is that is only the case when it is a monetary punishment. All too often in this country, people are hit with heavy fines for the slightest offence; but, as the story shows, when somebody is killed it doesn't get anything like the severe penalty that it merits.

If it proves anything, it's that this country is now all about how than can scr*w people for money. The driver who kills someone gets a fine; the lady who doesn't pay her Council Tax goes to prison

[Escapee]

Originally Posted by injuneer

I'll be frank and say that I am shocked by your admission and also shocked by your local council's attitude. They are very hot on it where I live.
Did you see Rogue Traders this week? There was a country lane in Kent that was blocked for about 30 yards of its length with building rubble, it wasn't just dumped by the side but right in the middle! Nice meeting that lot on a dark night whilst driving. Of course we pick up the bill to clear it up in our council tax.

I have had at the last count over 20 skips here, 17 of them to remove earth when digging out the rear garden and the other 4 or 5 for general rubbish during the past 10 years or so.

I have no problem paying the price of a skip to have my rubbish dumped, but if the council had the lack of common sense in removing the double yellow lines on both sides of the road, why should I take valuable holidays off work and arrange skips if they can't be delivered after 3 attempts in one day.

What can the council really say to me, I have told them what I have done and they are the key to sorting the issue out. We didn't have our bins emptied for 3 weeks running because the refuse lorry couldn't get up the street due to inconsiderate residents parking their cars in a mess.

It the council has to pay to clear my mess up where its dumped by the local gypsy's half a mile away, under the circumstances why should I worry as the council obviously has no intention of sorting the issue out.