Auschwitz book-keeper Groening sentenced to four years

[adzii_nufc]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33533264

The witch hunt on the former Nazi has reached it's conclusion.

Hope all the do-gooders are pleased. What is this? This still hasn't been left alone? They're now chasing 94 year old men that simply had a choice of doing what they were told or face near certain death themselves. 70 years and they're still using the 'Nazi Machine' thing. Absurd.. Leave it alone.

The guy himself doesn't deny he's morally guilty, but it really shows what it's come to now, instead of letting go they're chasing Book-Keepers.

What precisely is your objection here?

Do you really think continuing to find and prosecute those who committed or facilitated the Holocaust should now be left alone simply because they've evaded it for so long that it's now time to 'let go'?

His age has nothing to do with it. It's 70 more years than many of the 6 million victims had.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by Damien

What precisely is your objection here?

Do you really think continuing to find and prosecute those who committed or facilitated the Holocaust should now be left alone simply because they've evaded it for so long that it's now time to 'let go'?

His age has nothing to do with it. It's 70 more years than many of the 6 million victims had.

No, I'm saying punishing a 94 year old bloke for following orders is ludicrous. He hasn't evaded anything. He's never hidden. He's played a minimal part in this supposed 'War Machine' A lot of people were simply soldiers, forced into doing a job or face the consequences, we're quick to forget about that and brand them as fascist pigs instead.

Do your job and then be hunted for the next 70 years or die. What an amazing system. We're quickly taught to believe everyone that lived in Nazi Germany was automatically a racist ignorant fascist murderer.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Damien

What precisely is your objection here?

Do you really think continuing to find and prosecute those who committed or facilitated the Holocaust should now be left alone simply because they've evaded it for so long that it's now time to 'let go'?

His age has nothing to do with it. It's 70 more years than many of the 6 million victims had.

And he was responsible for their deaths, how exactly?

A man who was presumably forced to do the role or face harm/death to himself or his family? Put yourselves in that mans shoes what would you do?

They've gone after this man because there are not many left to go after. So it appears to be a case of lets get whoever we can with whatever we can.

Originally Posted by adzii_nufc

No, I'm saying punishing a 94 year old bloke for following orders is ludicrous. He hasn't evaded anything. He's never hidden. He's played a minimal part in this supposed 'War Machine' A lot of people were simply soldiers, forced into doing a job or face the consequences, we're quick to forget about that and brand them as fascist pigs instead.

Well he joined the SS voluntary. Also soldiers don't get prosecuted but instead people who facilitated the Holocaust do. Most Nazi War Criminals were following orders from somewhere, such a scenario would mean all but the leaders at the very top would be spared conviction for what they did. Do you think the people managing the camps weren't following orders?

Do your job and then be hunted for the next 70 years or die. What an amazing system. We're quickly taught to believe everyone that lived in Nazi Germany was automatically a racist ignorant fascist murderer.

You are not being taught that but rather even if someone wasn't a 'racist ignorant fascist murderer' that they're still reasonable for their actions. You don't have to be evil to have done bad things.

This guy wasn't directly killing anyone, seemed repulsed by what happened and even argued against Holocaust denial more recently but he still helped in the running of the camps at the time and he knew full well what they were doing.

I can see why this case splits people but to suggest that the prosecution of former Nazi War Criminals is being done by 'do-gooders' and it should be 'left-alone' is pretty ignorant. You're also wrong to assume that to do this means you're branding everyone as 'racist ignorant fascist murderer'. It doesn't work that way.

[adzii_nufc]

He accepted moral responsibility for his part in the Holocaust a long time ago, but that isn't the same thing as criminal responsibility. If what he did was considered to have facilitated the Holocaust, are prisoners who carried bodies out of the gas chambers also guilty of facilitating the Holocaust? Are we also going to go after individuals in the military police who enforced military discipline amongst the guards under the premise that they facilitated the Holocaust by not allowing the camps to fall into disarray? Should all members of the Wehrmacht be prosecuted as well, since the Holocaust's millions of deaths wouldn't have happened if they'd refused to invade other countries?
At some point, you have to draw a line. Groening never harmed anyone personally, never ordered or organized the harming of anyone, and his job wasn't critical to the actual process of killing. Without him and people like him, graft in the camps would increase and the Third Reich wouldn't recycle the possessions of its victims as efficiently, but tens of millions would still die.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Damien

This guy wasn't directly killing anyone, seemed repulsed by what happened and even argued against Holocaust denial more recently but he still helped in the running of the camps at the time and he knew full well what they were doing.

No doubt if the boot was on the other foot you would have done the noble thing and topped yourself and your family instead of keeping the books?

Originally Posted by mrmistoffelees

And he was responsible for their deaths, how exactly?

The same way the people who loaded the trains or drove them are responsible. They're accessories to the process. They knew what the purpose of their jobs was.

These camps were organised and industrious. It required more than just the killers themselves to operate. The whole idea, especially towards the end, was to kill as many people as efficiently as possible. They needed a lot of people to do this and make it work.

A man who was presumably forced to do the role or face harm/death to himself or his family? Put yourselves in that mans shoes what would you do?

Doesn't make a difference. Believe it or not that are many times that you can empathise with people who have done bad things but that doesn't absolve anyone of complicity. I think many people would have done the same as him but they would still be reasonable for it.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

No doubt if the boot was on the other foot you would have done the noble thing and topped yourself and your family instead of keeping the books?

This. This is the only point I'm getting at.

How is it that the actual war criminals went on to lead IG Farben, BASF, Siemens, Volkswagen, Krupp, Zeiss, Leica Messerschmitt.. and this guy gets 'Forgiven' by many after his speaking out against holocaust deniers and then gets hung for it.

Many Auschwitz survivors have actually forgiven this man, by do-gooders I mean the 20 year olds standing outside the court with banners demanding his head...

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

No doubt if the boot was on the other foot you would have done the noble thing and topped yourself and your family instead of keeping the books?

Probably not but that wouldn't absolve me of what I would have done. I think a lot of people here seem to think that only other people can do bad things.

One of the things about this part of history is the story of how otherwise normal humans, like you and me, did something unimaginably evil.

[heero_yuy]

Originally Posted by Damien

Probably not but that wouldn't absolve me of what I would have done. I think a lot of people here seem to think that only other people can do bad things.

No. But how far down the food chain do you go with culpability? The guy who cleaned the windows? The supplier of bread to the camp? Pens? etc.

How about the Catholic church who's silence during the war years was deafening?

[adzii_nufc]

Do we punish him by today's law? rather than what we would've done 70 years ago?

http://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2...ikes-kill-1147

Now that is a war crime. It's the US though, no one really gives a toss. Especially given anyone under the age of 20 now believes all muslims are extremists.

Originally Posted by heero_yuy

No. But how far down the food chain do you go with culpability? The guy who cleaned the windows? The supplier of bread to the camp? Pens? etc.

The current law in Germany states you have to have been working there and had full knowledge of what the purpose of the camp was.

I mean the other side to this is that he joined the SS of his own accord and was then assigned to Auschwitz at that point he could have been given a gun or a pen. Is it then fair for the ones in the first group to be prosecuted and not the ones in the latter group? They all joined the SS and they all were involved in making these camps efficient at what they did, and they all knew what the camps were for.

[adzii_nufc]

Originally Posted by Damien

The current law in Germany states you have to have been working there and had full knowledge of what the purpose of the camp was.

I mean the other side to this is that he joined the SS of his own accord and was then assigned to Auschwitz at that point he could have been given a gun or a pen. Is it then fair for the ones in the first group to be prosecuted and not the ones in the latter group? They all joined the SS and they all were involved in making these camps efficient at what they did, and they all knew what the camps were for.

He made the argument they had no clue what it was for until he saw it for himself.

There were many, him included that then tried to leave the SS. Naturally, a lot just grabbed their gun and went on with it.

[mrmistoffelees]

Originally Posted by Damien

The same way the people who loaded the trains or drove them are responsible. They're accessories to the process. They knew what the purpose of their jobs was.

These camps were organised and industrious. It required more than just the killers themselves to operate. The whole idea, especially towards the end, was to kill as many people as efficiently as possible. They needed a lot of people to do this and make it work.



Doesn't make a difference. Believe it or not that are many times that you can empathise with people who have done bad things but that doesn't absolve anyone of complicity. I think many people would have done the same as him but they would still be reasonable for it.

I put it to you it makes a hell of a lot of difference, it's very easy for you to sit in an ivory tower and pontificate and cast judgement. I suspect if you were placed in the same situation it would sharp change.