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Labour taking a close look at universal basic income
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Old 05-06-2016, 14:26   #1
Damien
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Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...compass-report

Quote:
Labour is considering backing the idea of a universal basic income – a radical transformation of the welfare state that would ditch means-tested benefits in favour a flat-rate payment.
This would mean everyone gets a flat-rate payment from the Government in lieu of any benefits. It's popular amongst people who want to detoxify the concept of benefits as it's universal.

Personally I don't like it. I think it's a massive waste of money and would rather that money be directed at those who need it, in higher amounts, rather than giving people like me a flat-rate payment. I mean I would take it but I wouldn't vote for it.

The only idea where this makes sense is here:

Quote:
A universal basic income (UBI) is regarded by some on the left as a response to the robotisation of the workforce, which it is feared could replace lower-skilled jobs and exacerbate inequality. It would be paid to everyone, whether or not they were in work.
For now I don't think it works but there is a theory that more and more jobs will be taken over by computers and AI in which case we would come to a real crisis point where unemployment soars to unsustainable levels. Who keeps the profits of a fully automated workforce? Does the concept of profits even make sense if all our needs can be addressed by automatisation?

Weird times.
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Old 05-06-2016, 14:30   #2
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

I see that Switzerland is voting on this question today and are expected to regect it. To me it smacks of communism by the back door.
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Old 05-06-2016, 14:47   #3
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

They have rejected it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36454060
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Old 05-06-2016, 14:57   #4
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

If they'd accepted it can you imagine the tides of immigrants, I mean free money just for being there.
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Old 05-06-2016, 15:00   #5
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy View Post
If they'd accepted it can you imagine the tides of immigrants, I mean free money just for being there.
The Swiss tend to be quite tight about immigration (they aren't in the EU).
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Old 05-06-2016, 15:06   #6
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy View Post
If they'd accepted it can you imagine the tides of immigrants, I mean free money just for being there.
Under the Swiss proposal, you had to be a legal adult resident to be eligible, and you have to have been resident in Switzerland for 10 years before you can apply for citizenship.
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Old 05-06-2016, 20:27   #7
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

Wasn't it a village in Switzerland, who said no to taking Migrants. As they said it would ruin the village - why cant we take that stance, since last week, there could be an increase of another 100.000
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Old 06-06-2016, 07:48   #8
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy View Post
If they'd accepted it can you imagine the tides of immigrants, I mean free money just for being there.
But that's OK because as we all know, uncontrolled migration is essential in order to keep things running smoothly...
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Old 06-06-2016, 16:20   #9
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

<somewhat O/T>
It's not just robots which might replace workers - what about nanotech, which is already finding its way into our society? Imagine a workforce that can be produced for next to nothing (other than initial R & D, obviously), can be configured to whatever work application is needed - and doesn't need food, water, rest breaks, money, sex, recreation or, indeed, anything other than raw materials and programming instructions.

(And please don't give me that "grey goo" nonsense - programming languages will be, and probably already have been, developed that can avoid that; there will always be some hardwired protocol to shut the nanites down if need be.)

Such a development would mean disaster in a civilisation still ruled by the profit motive as ours is. But I suspect employers wouldn't care about putting most of the world's working population out of work because:

It costs money just to hire workers.
It costs money to keep them warm/cool (depending on circumstances) so they don't get sick, i.e. fainting due to heatstroke or freezing their unmentionables off.
They get sick, which cuts into productivity, which costs money.
They get injured or even killed - ditto. Hell, sometimes they kill each other...
It costs money to train them, and it often takes years.
It costs money for any equipment they need.
Eventually they retire, which costs money for their pensions.

None of this applies to nanotech. Build enough of them and they can build others for no extra cost, these others can build still more, and so on. When they're finished with their tasks, they can be programmed to disassemble each other and the raw material can be used again. And again, and again, and again...

Sounds very attractive to an employer, doesn't it? At the risk of sounding self-centred, thankfully it isn't likely to happen in my working lifetime.

The next generation, though, may have something to worry about in 20 years or so.
</somewhat O/T>

Having been on Universal Credit and seeing how well that's worked out, I'm against the idea of UBI.

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Old 06-06-2016, 17:13   #10
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

Many, many years ago the Liberal Party considered this for a much lower amount.

It's not as daft or unaffordable as it sounds (and as Damien says, we will have to do something to deal with the vast amount of jobs that will become automated).

If abuses can be dealt with, the benefits are:

- The payment would be taxable, so 20% (or more for higher taxpayers) would be clawed back.

- Perhaps it could withheld from those on the very top rate of tax?

- The Swiss intended to increase sales taxes to help fund their scheme. If this were to be levied on luxury goods, working people would have been compensated via their new payment. Those not working probably wouldn't be affected as they would need their basic income for the more essential things in life.

- The means tested Pension Credit to top up a pensioners income could be abolished and replaced by the new payment. This would make pensioners better off and avoid the means test that many current pensioners find humiliating.

- The savings in administration for benefits would be massively reduced.

- Student grants & loans for living costs could be scrapped along with the costs of administration.

- There would be virtually no fraud or error in the processing of benefits payments.

- There would be no need for costly Government projects to get people back to work.

- The number of disabled people having to be tested and retested would plummet, again leading to cost savings.

- Top up 'In Work benefits' like Housing Benefit, Council Tax Reduction, Working Tax Credits, Child Tax Credits etc would drop to only a small proportion of the workforce (or nil if it is assumed that no further help would be offered to those with higher needs).

- Carers Allowance could probably be abolished.

- Child Benefit could be abolished.

- Employers could be confident that those applying for jobs really want the position as opposed to complying with Jobcentre instructions to keep their benefits. Many employers are sick and tired of unsolicited enquiries about possible vacancies that the Jobcentre requires of current claimants.

- It would remove the stigma of being on benefits.

- Those able to work and find employment would have no need to resent paying towards those unable to work as they would be receiving the very same payment.

I think that with the financial and human benefits of this system, coupled with the world of work gearing up to change like never before, it's something that all Governments will have to consider.

It goes against everything that most people are taught ie you must work and earn your money etc, but if we don't do something the Government will be paying out more and more for staff to chase the increasing number of unemployed people who will be applying for an ever decreasing number of jobs.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-34066941

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/n...ed-robots.html

---------- Post added at 17:13 ---------- Previous post was at 16:52 ----------

Quote:
Originally Posted by heero_yuy View Post
If they'd accepted it can you imagine the tides of immigrants, I mean free money just for being there.
This is a very good point. The whole thing would collapse if we were to continue to allow unfettered immigration.

As time goes by, there will be even less work for our own citizens, let alone for immigrants.

You'd think that the Government would have learned the lessons of bringing in black people in the 1950's. The original plan by both parties was that they would come over, help us out with the shortage of people required to do unskilled jobs at the time and then return home.

What happened was that they formed relationships, had children, bought houses and became settled. Many then said that they would 'go back home' upon retirement.

But where was home? The passage of time meant that their former homes had changed beyond recognition, former friends, neighbours and family had moved, died or they no longer had anything in common.

It would have been far better to have put them on a (rolling if need be) temporary leave to remain basis.

That way everyone would know where they stood and there would be less resentment towards immigrants as they would only be here when they were actually helping us.

Last edited by RichardCoulter; 06-06-2016 at 17:17.
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Old 06-06-2016, 17:20   #11
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

Whilst I agree technology in the coming half century is likely to put more and more humans out of work no one national government can come up with any solution this has to be completely global or countries that did implement something like this will be outdone by the nations who don't. This will mean a complete overhaul of not just benefits, society and accepted thought but a massive overhaul of the corporate system. It's a bit like communism good idea but not very practical right now.
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Old 06-06-2016, 22:57   #12
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

The Green Party also had this as part of their manifesto ..
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Old 07-06-2016, 10:47   #13
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Re: Labour taking a close look at universal basic income

I have no issues with a UBI, however it requires an extraordinary amount of caveats in order to work.

I suspect the human race will be in a post-income system before a UBI that works became widespread.
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