ID Cards

[tphj]

ID Cards
For or Against?
Why?

[demented]

Against. Civil, political and human rights are one of the most precious things any human has. They are not some airy fairy set of principles but something invented many centuries ago for which great minds have been striving for ever since. ID cards sets us down the slope of taking these away.

The reasons for ID cards are very weak and often hinge on vague and unsubstantiated bogeymen e.g. asylum seekers and scare tactics e.g. terrorism or other silly arguments such as the nothing to hide one. They are bureaucrats' wishlists, would be costly both in terms of money and hassle for some people and the benefits vague. For many such as myself the benefits are negligible and the costs very great.

Originally Posted by tphj

ID Cards

What about them?

For or Against?

Against

Why?

I don't object to carrying a licence or card that proves I'm authorised to do any specific thing - like drive, or obtain credit - but I do object to carrying a card in order to legitimise my right to exist. That is not in the Government's gift and it is outrageous that they are attempting to take these powers.

It is also outrageous that they are throwing so many billions at it in the sure knowledge that the scheme will be cancelled as soon as the Government changes - if it ever comes into force at all.

[Derek]

In principle I'm for them.

In reality I don't trust anyone, especially this Government, to implement them without making a hash of it.

[bw41101]

Originally Posted by tphj

ID Cards
For or Against?
Why?

For: - reasons:

1) Absolutely nothing to hide - doesn't concern me in the slightest.
2) Already have something similar for work - am used to carrying same - in fact have already used same as means of identification.
3) If applied as per abroad, no need for a passport within the EEC.
4) If made properly with (anti forgery) security will make illegal imigration more difficult.
5) The best way for the police to identify people in the furtherence of their duties.

Against: Being forced to pay for one of these, when the choice of enforcement is mandated by the government.

Like I already intimated above, I've absolutely nothing to hide or be concerned about and as far as I'm concerned I'd be happy to carry one of these - no problemo!

Si thee

Originally Posted by bw41101

For: - reasons:

1) Absolutely nothing to hide - doesn't concern me in the slightest.

So, if the police were permitted, by law, to cavity search you without any reasonable cause, would you be happy for them to do that because you've nothing to hide? Or, to turn over your house without a warrant, just in case?

2) Already have something similar for work - am used to carrying same - in fact have already used same as means of identification.

The scheme being proposed by the Government will not compel people to carry an ID card on their person. And in any case, carrying, or losing, a piece of plastic with at worst your name and an unflattering photo on it hardly compares to the massive breach of personal security that could occur should your national ID card go missing.

3) If applied as per abroad, no need for a passport within the EEC.

There's no need for a passport when travelling within the EU as it is - only to enter or leave the Schengen immigration zone from the UK. Currently you either carry a passport, or you carry nothing, depending on where you're travelling from and to. That won't change, except that you might carry an ID card instead of a passport. What's the difference, exactly? A passport's not exactly bulky.

4) If made properly with (anti forgery) security will make illegal imigration more difficult.

How, exactly? Illegal immigrants arrive concealed in the backs of 40-tonne HGVs and don't form a queue at passport control.

5) The best way for the police to identify people in the furtherence of their duties.

The police, or other Authorities, have been identifying people in this country for centuries. The number of criminal cases where identity is a significant problem in cracking a case and getting a conviction is vanishingly small.

Seeing as you would not have to actually carry the card described in the Government's proposed scheme, it will be of no use whatsoever in stop-and-search incidents.

Against: Being forced to pay for one of these, when the choice of enforcement is mandated by the government.

The cost of these things is in effect a massively regressive tax on the poor, who can ill afford it. It's hardly convenient to most of the rest of us as well.

But the cost issue pales into insignificance next to the Government's demonstrable inability to enforce anything that even remotely resembles internal data security.

Don't forget, if you have any children, that your full contact and bank account details are still floating around out there on a CD-ROM containing details of the UK's entire child benefit entitlement.

[papa smurf]

against - i know who i am,-i dont feel the need to prove it to anyone .

[Taf]

Against. I'd rather we were tattooed with a barcode at birth

[papa smurf]

Originally Posted by Taf

Against. I'd rather we were tattooed with a barcode at birth

just out of interest where would it be and how long a code

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Taf

Against. I'd rather we were tattooed with a barcode at birth

As stated in Revelations

My driving licence is good enough thanks.

[AntiSilence]

Originally Posted by Derek S

In reality I don't trust anyone, especially this Government, to implement them without making a hash of it.

It'd only be a matter of time before the entire database is left, un-encrypted on a laptop/flash drive etc, on the seat of a train or taxi

[tphj]

Originally Posted by bw41101

For: - reasons:

1) Absolutely nothing to hide - doesn't concern me in the slightest.
2) Already have something similar for work - am used to carrying same - in fact have already used same as means of identification.
3) If applied as per abroad, no need for a passport within the EEC.
4) If made properly with (anti forgery) security will make illegal imigration more difficult.
5) The best way for the police to identify people in the furtherence of their duties.

Against: Being forced to pay for one of these, when the choice of enforcement is mandated by the government.

Like I already intimated above, I've absolutely nothing to hide or be concerned about and as far as I'm concerned I'd be happy to carry one of these - no problemo!

Si thee

I couldn't agree with you more

Originally Posted by tphj

I couldn't agree with you more

That presumably means you couldn't disagree with me more. Would you take me apart piece by piece please, I'm interested in your views.

[tphj]

I have a driving licence and passport both my photo and date of birth are on them,so no one can complain about that.
On an ID card I would have the above on plus my NI number,my right to live and work in the UK,any biometric details that are required.
The only issue I have with ID cards is the cost

[demented]

Nothing to hide is not really a cogent reason for anything. There are an infinite number of things I am not hiding from the Police because they don't exist (except in paranoid people's minds). Proving someone's identity has nothing to do with whether they have a cannabis farm in a house, whether they are a people traffiker, whether they pavement cycle, don't pay their tv licence or any infinite number of other small misdemeanours. I do not do any of these. The nonsense is that ID cards would only really work if there were such a burden that daily life became unworkable - police road stops on every road, constant surveilance. These things are intolerable.

Nothing to hide is just code to mean I don't think I'll get stop and searched/harassed by the police because I'm rich/middle class/upper class/live in a low crime/rural/not in a minority/whatever. In reality it is a balance between potential harrassment and gains/losses elsewhere. If you don't have any of the harrassment it's much easier to support it, especially if you had a fair amount of wealth and you need the tools of the state to protect the erosion of this whether through traditional crime or identity crime. You might be well off and spend time worrying about your taxes rising through having to pay to support asylum seekers. There are many other scenerios. The people who trot out nothing to hide as a reason in all likehood have never been stopped and searched by the police, have fairly considerable material wealth and naturally want things to continue the way they are. Unfortunately it's not like that for everybody, there are many people who also have nothing to hide but whose lives would be made hell on earth by the police. Also it lives in an idealised world. ID cards make little or no difference protecting you from these things.

---------- Post added at 20:05 ---------- Previous post was at 19:59 ----------

Originally Posted by tphj

I have a driving licence and passport both my photo and date of birth are on them,so no one can complain about that.
On an ID card I would have the above on plus my NI number,my right to live and work in the UK,any biometric details that are required.
The only issue I have with ID cards is the cost

Environment affecting biometrics are not necessary for Identity verification. They are quite simply none of the state's business. They are just on the road towards a total police state (subject to when resources and computers are enough to realise this hellish vision).