Recording a call - VM staff

[Russ]

One for VM staff, and I'll explain why I'm asking in a bit - if a customer tells you they are recording the call, what if anything would you do?

[Kushan]

I don't know if it has changed, but when I was there (~2009-2010) we were told that if a customer wants to record the call, they have to present this to you at the very beginning of it - mentioning it half way through is a no-no and there are potential legal implications for the customer if they fail to mention it. If they do record the call and don't tell you at the beginning, then they can't use the recording for anything beyond their own personal use, not even a complaint to the company. This, I believe, is set down by OFCOM and nothing to do with company policy.

IF a customer was to state that they were recording, it was up to the agent to continue the call or not. There was no company policy regarding this either way, rather they left it up to the agent to decide. Some agents were funny about this, others were not as bothered. I, personally, only ever had one customer claim they were recording the call and she made the mistake of only mentioning it half way through. The sad part of that was that I could see what her issue was but she mentioned it at the wrong time and I was forced to inform her that I was obliged to end the call and why I had to do it.

[jb66]

I would say no I dont want to be recorded, but then what would the customer do, redial?

[Russ]

Ok this is my situation.

Each time I call the Filipino callcentre I get lied to, over-promised or they simply don't do what they say they'll do. And of course when you call up again to complain there's no record of the call etc.

I've got an app on my phone that automatically records calls (in every thread on every forum in the world when someone discusses recording calls someone always brings up the law, I'm fully aware of it) and I've caught some of the off-shore VM staff trying to fob me off. It got to the point a few weeks ago where I started telling each person I got through to that I'd be recording the call. I even asked a supposed 'manager' to put a note on my account to let any staff members access it know I record the calls, hopefully that way they won't lie or fob me off.

So today I get through to someone who again was telling me things I knew to not be true/correct and when I told him to be absolutely sure as I was recording it he went off on one saying he was not going to put me through to the department I required because I was recording it and, according to him, I was "breaking the law" so he'd report me to the fraud department.

When I told him I wasn't doing to play the recording for anyone else he then said "Oh so you're the expert on UK law" and said his contract of employment stated if a customer records the call they don't have to go ahead with it. Admittedly I thought he was lying as I couldn't believe any company would have such a policy and now you've confirmed it I find that even more suspicious, it's as if VM is aware its off-shore staff are so bad that customers consider recording calls.

Anyway the curious thing was he said he wasn't allowed to hang up on me and claimed he'd stay on the call for the "rest of the shift" if need be (another 6 hours).

Obviously I've put a complaint in against him but it's for reasons like these that customers don't like or trust off-shore callcentres.

[ruddock08]

Originally Posted by Russ

Ok this is my situation.

Each time I call the Filipino callcentre I get lied to, over-promised or they simply don't do what they say they'll do. And of course when you call up again to complain there's no record of the call etc.

I've got an app on my phone that automatically records calls (in every thread on every forum in the world when someone discusses recording calls someone always brings up the law, I'm fully aware of it) and I've caught some of the off-shore VM staff trying to fob me off. It got to the point a few weeks ago where I started telling each person I got through to that I'd be recording the call. I even asked a supposed 'manager' to put a note on my account to let any staff members access it know I record the calls, hopefully that way they won't lie or fob me off.

So today I get through to someone who again was telling me things I knew to not be true/correct and when I told him to be absolutely sure as I was recording it he went off on one saying he was not going to put me through to the department I required because I was recording it and, according to him, I was "breaking the law" so he'd report me to the fraud department.

When I told him I wasn't doing to play the recording for anyone else he then said "Oh so you're the expert on UK law" and said his contract of employment stated if a customer records the call they don't have to go ahead with it. Admittedly I thought he was lying as I couldn't believe any company would have such a policy and now you've confirmed it I find that even more suspicious, it's as if VM is aware its off-shore staff are so bad that customers consider recording calls.

Anyway the curious thing was he said he wasn't allowed to hang up on me and claimed he'd stay on the call for the "rest of the shift" if need be (another 6 hours).

Obviously I've put a complaint in against him but it's for reasons like these that customers don't like or trust off-shore callcentres.

He's going to report you to the fraud department? You should wish him good luck with that.. You haven't done anything fraudulent!

[Kushan]

Yeah, there's a lot of confusion over where the law sits on this one. The law is very much aimed at protecting consumers from companies doing the recordings, at least that's my understanding from trying to read it, so it's hard to pinpoint exactly where the law sits when it's the other way around.

All I know is what I was told during my training and there was never an official VM document that specifically addressed it (not that I seen, anyway) - it was just what my trainer told me but he made a significant effort to mention it.

For the record, the guy who trained me was one of the "good ones" (from way back in the Telewest days) who would always go out of his way for the customer and knew his stuff - one of the reasons he got the much-sought-after position of trainer. And he was no fan of VM either, he was a Union member and fought hard to look after us phone monkeys, often putting himself on the line when HR decided to do what HR does best and ****ed things up for someone. Suffice it to say, if he said it, there's a good chance he was correct but that's not a 100% guarantee either.

It's interesting that the agent in question refused to hang up, that's definitely something different to what I was told but I wouldn't be surprised if that was less a company policy and more a call centre policy. Offshore has a horrific reputation for agents hanging up on people, so perhaps his unwillingness to hang up has something to do with (presumably?) Virgin/IBM attempting to crack down on it? Nothing short of pure speculation from me though. We were definitely told that we shouldn't hang up on people, but if they were abusive then it was our prerogative (with the occasional HR dick trying to tell us to never hang up and quickly being shot down by a nearby union rep, should they overhear).

[devilincarnate]

Can I record telephone conversations on my home phone?

Yes. The relevant law, RIPA, does not prohibit individuals from recording their own communications provided that the recording is for their own use. Recording or monitoring are only prohibited where some of the contents of the communication - which can be a phone conversation or an e-mail - are made available to a third party, ie someone who was neither the caller or sender nor the intended recipient of the original communication. For further information see the Home Office website where RIPA is posted.

Do I have to let people know that I intend to record their telephone conversations with me?

No, provided you are not intending to make the contents of the communication available to a third party. If you are you will need the consent of the person you are recording.

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...qs/prvfaq3.htm

[GrimUpNorth]

Slightly different scenario.

Mrs G recorded a meeting with her boss, the HR person and the union rep. She then produced a written 'record' of the meeting in the subsequent employment tribunal and described it as an almost verbatim record.

Her ex-employer went to great lengths to discredit the written record, when the chairman of the tribunal asked how she'd produced something so detailed Mrs G said she'd recorded the meeting for her own records.

The chairman of the tribunal asked all parties concerned for their consent to listen to the recording but the employer refused. They did however withdraw their objections to the written account.

Mrs G was pretty certain that the slightly open laptop on the desk in the room was recording the meeting for the company anyway and they knew full well that the actual recording would be very damaging as a written account can't quite capture the tone used.

So sometimes just letting them know you've got a recording after the event can be enough to get the outcome you want.

Cheers

Grim

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by Russ

Anyway the curious thing was he said he wasn't allowed to hang up on me and claimed he'd stay on the call for the "rest of the shift" if need be (another 6 hours).

I'd have taken him up on his offer!

Obviously I've put a complaint in against him but it's for reasons like these that customers don't like or trust off-shore callcentres.

Not sure it's much to do with offshore (call-recording wise that is - the lies and incompetence are another matter), I've heard people getting the same rigamarole from on-shore from various companies.

[nomadking]

If a customer is faced with a "calls may be recorded for training purposes etc" message, what else can they do. They still need to make the call. At that point BOTH sides are aware that the call is being recorded, so why should a separate customer recording be problematic?

If the conversation is with a VM representative of some sort, surely VM themselves are not a 3rd party. You are calling VM as an organisation as the 2nd party. That should mean that you could validly use any recording to complain within VM.

[qasdfdsaq]

Originally Posted by devilincarnate

http://www.ofcom.org.uk/static/archi...qs/prvfaq3.htm

Interesting fact: This also applies to meetings.

Second interesting fact: Nothing's against the law until there is a law against it, and there's a lot of things that people don't like that aren't enough of a problem for someone to have actually made a law against it. RIPA is actually a relatively new act, and as Kushan states, is really against abuse of power by the authorities.

---------- Post added at 23:12 ---------- Previous post was at 23:08 ----------

Originally Posted by GrimUpNorth

Slightly different scenario.

Mrs G recorded a meeting with her boss, the HR person and the union rep. She then produced a written 'record' of the meeting in the subsequent employment tribunal and described it as an almost verbatim record.

[snip]

So sometimes just letting them know you've got a recording after the event can be enough to get the outcome you want.

Indeed, that is correct. Sorry to hear your Mrs had to go through the employment tribunal though, funny enough that's the same scenario I was in when I first had to read up on the law regarding these things :-P

[Kushan]

Originally Posted by nomadking

If a customer is faced with a "calls may be recorded for training purposes etc" message, what else can they do.

Indeed, not a lot if they can only phone. At least with Virgin, you can get help via other means, it's just less effective.

Originally Posted by nomadking

At that point BOTH sides are aware that the call is being recorded, so why should a separate customer recording be problematic?

Not so, the problem is that both sides are aware that one side is recording, but not the other. The law says nothing about "if you record a phone call, you have to allow someone to record you as well". After all, it's about sharing that phone call with a 3rd party and chances are, both sides will want to share their recordings with a different 3rd party.

Originally Posted by nomadking

If the conversation is with a VM representative of some sort, surely VM themselves are not a 3rd party. You are calling VM as an organisation as the 2nd party. That should mean that you could validly use any recording to complain within VM.

This is one of the trickier aspects of the law that I'd really love some clarification on. As mentioned, the law is aimed at stopping abuse from those in power against individuals, but when you record a call to Virgin, are you recording Virgin the company, an employee of Virgin or an individual person who happens to work for Virgin? They may well sound like the same things, but there's a distinction there, a subtle one, that can't be overlooked. In the case of the latter, yes Virgin is actually the 3rd party. Confusing, yes.

Something else to add to the mix - Virgin's message, last I recall hearing it, was something like "Just so you know, we sometimes record these calls for training purposes". Other companies say similar things.

This raises a question. If it's for training purposes, surely that doesn't involve a 3rd party? Surely that's within Virgin themselves. In that case, why do they need to tell you that they're recording? Are Virgin just covering their backs?

[mr.ben]

The actual reason you have to notify an advisor at the start of the call is to do with DPA, VM notify customers they are being recorded on the understanding the the recordings are kept secure and protected by data protection law.
If a customer records an advisor then there is no guarantee the recording is kept safe and in accordance with DPA regulations. But if the advisor agrees to the recording being made and the way it will be used then they can put a legal request to the customer for a transcript if they wanted to so it falls within their personal data protection.

Its nothing to do with Virgin Media being funny about allowing recordings. Its about the personal rights of their front line staff under UK law. And staff can terminate a call for this reason or abusive customers.

---------- Post added at 01:20 ---------- Previous post was at 01:18 ----------

Originally Posted by Kushan

Indeed, not a lot if they can only phone. At least with Virgin, you can get help via other means, it's just less effective.



Not so, the problem is that both sides are aware that one side is recording, but not the other. The law says nothing about "if you record a phone call, you have to allow someone to record you as well". After all, it's about sharing that phone call with a 3rd party and chances are, both sides will want to share their recordings with a different 3rd party.



This is one of the trickier aspects of the law that I'd really love some clarification on. As mentioned, the law is aimed at stopping abuse from those in power against individuals, but when you record a call to Virgin, are you recording Virgin the company, an employee of Virgin or an individual person who happens to work for Virgin? They may well sound like the same things, but there's a distinction there, a subtle one, that can't be overlooked. In the case of the latter, yes Virgin is actually the 3rd party. Confusing, yes.

Something else to add to the mix - Virgin's message, last I recall hearing it, was something like "Just so you know, we sometimes record these calls for training purposes". Other companies say similar things.

This raises a question. If it's for training purposes, surely that doesn't involve a 3rd party? Surely that's within Virgin themselves. In that case, why do they need to tell you that they're recording? Are Virgin just covering their backs?

And the recording is "to give you the best customer service possible" not training purposes.

[Russ]

Originally Posted by Russ

(in every thread on every forum in the world when someone discusses recording calls someone always brings up the law, I'm fully aware of it)

[papa smurf]

what is the nature of the fault with your services ?