[Tezcatlipoca]

Originally Posted by Chris

Re-watch the original. So much has been said and written since, we forget how little of the back-story was even hinted at in the first instalment. I really quite liked it this way. There's plenty of time to fill in the gaps. Gives us all something to look forward to.

Oh, I know.

I watched the Despecialized Editions of the Original Trilogy in the run up to seeing The Force Awakens


I do still think though that:

Spoiler: 

Empire versus Rebellion in the OT was more straightforward and obvious than First Order versus Resistance-while-the-Republic-is-also-knocking-around-doing-something. The crawl explained that the First Order rose from the ashes of the Empire, which is fair enough and all you need for that. But I would have liked some info on the Resistance/Republic relationship, rather than having to make assumptions or read external sources.

---------- Post added 03-01-2016 at 00:12 ---------- Previous post was 02-01-2016 at 23:26 ----------

Originally Posted by Russ

Only a few slight criticisms, not going in to details as I don't want to spoil anything but those who have seen it will understand, certain characters develop certain skills a little too quickly and easily in my view. It didn't take anything away from the story though. Plus one of the characters, given their background and history appeared to have unexpected difficultly in combat with a less experienced individual. But again that didn't spoil the scene or overall story.

Spoiler: 

Remember how little training Luke had in the Original Trilogy?

He grew up as a moisture farmer on a desert backwater, and had never before left his home planet until going off with Obi-Wan and co on the Falcon, and yet he was able to pilot and dogfight with an X-Wing during the Battle of Yavin. And not only that, he also managed to make the kill shot on the Death Star, without a targetting computer, all because Obi-Wan told him to "Use the Force".

Luke's actual Jedi training in A New Hope consisted solely of a quick go at using a lightsaber to deflect blaster bolts from a remote, while the Falcon was travelling to Alderaan. He also witnessed Obi-Wan use the Jedi Mind Trick once and use a lightsaber once, before boarding the Falcon.

Three years later, in The Empire Strikes Back, Luke was able to use the Force to remotely grab his lightsaber while he was hanging upside down in a wampa's ice cave. This was despite him never having been taught that particular Jedi technique, nor even seeing it before, and despite him not actually having any Jedi training since that brief play with a lightsaber on the Falcon.

He then flew to Dagobah, where he had a very brief period of training with Yoda (we know it was brief as it happened at the same time the Falcon was in the asteroid field and then off to Bespin).

During this brief bit of training, Yoda tried to teach Luke Jedi mediation, Force Lifting, and other things, and tried to teach Luke the importance of patience and control and self-belief. Unfortunately, Luke failed his training with Yoda, and then recklessly and emotionally abandoned it to go off to Bespin and try and rescue his friends.

At Bespin, Luke then managed to hold his own in a lightsaber duel against Darth Vader, someone who had had many years of actual training and practice, while Luke himself could not have had actual duelling practice or training before, as you can't do that with a remote and there would have been no one for him to duel with. Of course, Vader was toying with him and just wanted to capture him.

One year after that, in Return of the Jedi, Luke had clearly used the off-screen time gap to try and practice what Yoda had tried to teach him back on Dagobah.

Despite not having any additional formal training from an actual Jedi Master since The Empire Strikes Back (as we know that Luke never returned to Dagobah until ROTJ), Luke had *finally* learned patience and control and focus and self-belief, and as such was now able to fully use the Jedi Mind Trick, Force Pull, etc., and also fully able to *properly* fight with a lightsaber, leading to his second duel with Vader at the end of the film. No longer was he a reckless and impatient whiner.


So, The Force Awakens...

Rey is clearly a natural pilot - just like Luke and Anakin.

Rey is clearly very strong with the Force - just like Luke and Anakin.

But, *unlike* pre-ROTJ Luke, Rey is already clearly shown to be possessed of patience and control and belief in herself, and is already clearly shown to be capable of fighting and of defending herself.

Rey already has those qualities that Luke lacked when Yoda tried to train him - those things the lack of which caused Luke to fail when with Yoda.

So, once "Awakened", why shouldn't Rey develop her Force abilities as quickly as we saw? It's not about formal training in specific Jedi skills - it's about control and patience and believing that you can do it.

The only ability I think is a bit of a stretch is the Jedi Mind Trick on Daniel Craig's Stormtrooper, which was played for laughs. But I think that can be explained by her "Awakening" to the Force and by her exposure to Jedi mind powers from Kylo Ren's Force Interrogation.



The Kylo Ren / Finn / Rey fight:

Rey -

As above.



Finn -

He has been trained since childhood to be a Stormtrooper. His whole purpose in life has been to fight for the First Order. He also presumably would have been trained in using that stun baton thing we saw another Stormtrooper use against him earlier on (in a scene that would have been better with Captain Phasma as the opponent, to give her something to do).



Kylo Ren -

Clearly very strong with the Force, plus he had been trained by Luke *and* by Snoke (but not yet fully trained). Light and Dark.

But, as repeatedly shown in the film, he was very undisciplined, and prone to temper tantrums, and prone to showing off and trying to be flashy.

And, of course, two important things happened to Kylo Ren just before the fight: 1) He had been shot by Chewie's Bowcaster, something that would have instantly killed anyone else and then blasted them off that bridge (the film repeatedly and deliberately showed us just how powerful it was), and 2) He had just killed his own father, thinking that it would end his inner turmoil and end the "call of the Light".

So, when he faced off against Finn, and then Rey, he was *not* at his best!

He also looked like he was toying with Finn (we know he's both a show off and reckless, and could have just Force Choked Finn).

But, despite Kylo Ren's emotional and physical handicaps, and despite him not really full-on trying to kill Finn anyway, Finn only managed to get *one* lucky strike in before Kylo Ren sliced open Finn's back and left him for dead.

And then Rey joined the fight... Strong with the Force and recently "Awakened", already capable of fighting and of defending herself (unlike Luke at the same point in his hero journey), and already patient and in control and possessing belief in herself (unlike Luke at the same point in his hero journey).

And so she held her own, when Kylo Ren wasn't trying to kill her and wanted to turn and train her (like Luke and Vader in ESB), and then got the upper hand when she fully opened up to the Force (and - it seemed - let her anger out too... ).


I have various issues with the film, despite utterly loving it, but I have no problem with Rey, Finn, and Kylo Ren's skills in general or with the final fight.

Anyway. Awesome film. I've seen it three times now, and want to go again