[Chloé Palmas]

Originally Posted by OLD BOY

You're wrong there, Chloé. It's approaching 'get real' time. If we don't get anywhere with the EU, May will simply go for the hard Brexit. However, I think she is trying to avoid that by getting other EU countries on side. They have a firmer grasp of reality than Barnier & co.

Well, they will get the final say (along with their parliaments) so you'll get a chance to test that theory...if it even gets that far?

If they don't get as far, May will never go for a hard Brexit - ever. She just threatens as much from time to time to fill her daily bout / dose of attention seeking / robotic "appease my hardliners" phase...then the remain folks will start pulling the strings and off she goes to placate them and round her phase of "giving" goes.

I think a lot of bad things about the EU, but I don't think they are actually certifiably mad, and that we will get a deal with them.

Barnier is principally someone who believes that a coherent single market with intelligent rules that apply everywhere - going in the EU intentionally had him set as the chief negotiator to send the message to the UK that "you're either going to get no access, or accept all rules for them".

If we don't things don't look good for the EU. They won't get their €40bn, they will suffer through what will happen to their exports to us, and they will have a new upstart competitor sporting lower tax rates for business with whom they cannot compete.

If they don't get the 40 Billion, they will register a default given our failure to pay existing obligations that we owe - ministers have even (begrudgingly) agreed that we owe that money, will pay it and that is that. We also would forfeit rebates (obviously) so the amount we would save in the 40 billion in the short run for the long term damage is preposterous. We will be paying the 40 billion, no matter what.

Seriously, if you were Barnier, would you really dig your heels in?

I would make it clear that the UK would either comply with the 4 principles of the EU or get no access to the SM. I would make it very clear that you were either a part of the CU, or not. I would make it clear that you either get friction less trade, or you get to make your own trade deals (you make the call). I would also state that if you do not keep the Irish border open then you get nothing. That breaks the back of the union...hmm I could swear that he has already done all that.

Smart man. I would make it clear to the UK that they are not going to have their cake and eat it.

He seems to have done all that...he is a smart guy. Now, heels. He is a good looking guy so if he was to go head to head with me, on heels - I might just lose. I think he is even slightly taller than me...would he look good in heels? I don't know, but he is clearly a good looking guy.

Nobody expected her to lose at first. The dreadful truth began to dawn during the election campaign.

Ummm...what??? Nobody expected her to lose? From day 1, that is all I expected...has history not taught you that once a nation nationalizes it has to socialize? When once did a nation ever turn to conservatism once it nationalized anything (rail / money / power and utilities...anything?) The entire principle of nationalism is the total antithesis of conservatism ; conservatism is free market based...you know, the lack of borders, tariffs, borders etc - the very thing that the EU aspires towards. What made you think that nationalists who voted against immigrants would ever do anything but vote for union based parties like the LP? Everyone said that if it wasnn't for Corbyn then Labor would have won...garbage. It was because he is such a socialist that the natural UKIP voters all went back home to their beloved Labor party as there was no need for UKIP anymore.

Nationalism has no basis in conservatism. The two should never ever be conflated.

It now looks as though the battle for minds has been won. The Cabinet meeting on Friday will agree the way forward. It will be a deal involving maximum facilitation or a hard Brexit. Basically, that is our choice, and I think finally, the remainers and Brexiteers are beginning to agree that there is no other way forward.

That is only among the cabinet ; at least if nothing else there was not group think in that aspect - the state yet will allow freedom of thought...though not movement.

However though, once they are done bickering the EU will get the final say, and no means no when they reject.