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Mr Angry · 14-02-2006, 01:14

"Everyone I have asked about this (7-10 people who are commited Christian) have agreed. IMO its a problem with Islam, not a problem with freedom of speech."

Hardly the best "sample" of society to get a reasoned or well formulated interpretation of how practitioners of another religion might feel insulted by a lampooning of their God. Not a dig at christians, simply an observation that a more culturally diverse sample base would most probably have resulted in a different outcome.

In my opinion these cartoons are in no way a "criticism" of Islam. Anyone who can interpret them as a criticism is simply fooling themselves and excusing irresponsible actions on the part of (sales led) media outlets. There is nothing critique based about them, nor has anyone involved in their creation cited "criticism" as the basis for their creation. They were designed to cause offence / poke fun and that is exactly what they did - in spades.

Those who are better placed than I to understand the current mindset of muslims (both moderate and fundamental) have cited these cartoons as the last straw as far as the muslim religion and its current stigmatism is concerned. I don't subscribe to this theory of "Oh, lets print a few cartoons to prove they're all nutters" that some people are peddling. In light of some of the atrocities that have been carried out to date "in the name of Islam" I think there is more than substantial proof of a small hardcore of "nutters" - I really don't require any more proof - thanks all the same mr international newspaper publisher man.

As someone who has lived through 30 years of a religious based war of attrition of bombings, shootings and murderers visiting in the night I can tell you this - NO religious based war is right and any right thinking human being should do all in their power to prevent them rather than fanning the flames of what ignites them - be that in the guise of freedom of speech or whatever. Religious wars and intolerance are based and founded on the teachings of individuals or deitys whose existence or divine proximity to a God no one can definitively prove. Those of us who subscribe to any religion do so on the basis of faith - I respect everyones right to express their faith, it is a fundamental human right. What never ceases to amaze me though is our lack of faith in our fellow man.

Perhaps if we spent a bit more time expending faith and goodwill to "tangible entities" like our neighbours, the "black guy down the road", "the white kid on the corner" or the "indian single parent round the corner" then we would be reciprocated in a fashion that is more becoming of a civilized society.

Two wrongs don't make a right, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. Cliches, I know, but sadly very true.

I think everyone should step back from this and reflect for a minute. Is it worth the loss of a single life just to print a cartoon? Does anyone want to see multiple 7/7's happening on a regular basis? Do honest hard working muslims want to spend an eternity thinking "Do they secretly think I'm a terrorist"? I think the answer is no.

We lost over 3000 lives here in Northern Ireland, and many lives were lost elsewhere, through one or other of the two main religious groupings over here citing "freedom of speech", "human rights", the right to "self determination" or "go back to where you came from" rhetoric. This s**t costs LIVES - real human being lives, families.

We can debate all we want on an internet discussion board but our actions beyond this safe environment will shape the future of intercultural relationships throughout the UK and beyond.

I have no vested interest in the political leanings of anyone on this board but I think our troubles here in Northern Ireland were best summed up with the statement that we needed to "disarm the mindset". This was a profound statement and, to this day, rings true and effective in the continued relative peace we have over here (I have managed to raise three wonderful young sons who have never heard a bomb go off or a weapon discharged - and for that I am eternally grateful).

This may seem consequentially small to many readers of this post but it means the world to me.

You do not want to suffer what we suffered. It benefits no one and, as has been the case here in Northern Ireland, after the fact everyone will sit back, draw a deep breath and try to gauge the worth of a war. No one I know thinks that anything good came out of those 30 years. We are now only nearly at a stage of mutual religious respect & tolerance that most countries achieved in the middle ages.

To see the potential for the UK / Europe to show that they have learnt nothing from our intolerance for each other is both disappointing and worrying to say the least.

Peace out.

14-02-2006, 01:14	#186
Mr Angry Inactive Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Belfast Posts: 4,785	Re: Muslims to march in London "Everyone I have asked about this (7-10 people who are commited Christian) have agreed. IMO its a problem with Islam, not a problem with freedom of speech." Hardly the best "sample" of society to get a reasoned or well formulated interpretation of how practitioners of another religion might feel insulted by a lampooning of their God. Not a dig at christians, simply an observation that a more culturally diverse sample base would most probably have resulted in a different outcome. In my opinion these cartoons are in no way a "criticism" of Islam. Anyone who can interpret them as a criticism is simply fooling themselves and excusing irresponsible actions on the part of (sales led) media outlets. There is nothing critique based about them, nor has anyone involved in their creation cited "criticism" as the basis for their creation. They were designed to cause offence / poke fun and that is exactly what they did - in spades. Those who are better placed than I to understand the current mindset of muslims (both moderate and fundamental) have cited these cartoons as the last straw as far as the muslim religion and its current stigmatism is concerned. I don't subscribe to this theory of "Oh, lets print a few cartoons to prove they're all nutters" that some people are peddling. In light of some of the atrocities that have been carried out to date "in the name of Islam" I think there is more than substantial proof of a small hardcore of "nutters" - I really don't require any more proof - thanks all the same mr international newspaper publisher man. As someone who has lived through 30 years of a religious based war of attrition of bombings, shootings and murderers visiting in the night I can tell you this - NO religious based war is right and any right thinking human being should do all in their power to prevent them rather than fanning the flames of what ignites them - be that in the guise of freedom of speech or whatever. Religious wars and intolerance are based and founded on the teachings of individuals or deitys whose existence or divine proximity to a God no one can definitively prove. Those of us who subscribe to any religion do so on the basis of faith - I respect everyones right to express their faith, it is a fundamental human right. What never ceases to amaze me though is our lack of faith in our fellow man. Perhaps if we spent a bit more time expending faith and goodwill to "tangible entities" like our neighbours, the "black guy down the road", "the white kid on the corner" or the "indian single parent round the corner" then we would be reciprocated in a fashion that is more becoming of a civilized society. Two wrongs don't make a right, an eye for an eye leaves everyone blind. Cliches, I know, but sadly very true. I think everyone should step back from this and reflect for a minute. Is it worth the loss of a single life just to print a cartoon? Does anyone want to see multiple 7/7's happening on a regular basis? Do honest hard working muslims want to spend an eternity thinking "Do they secretly think I'm a terrorist"? I think the answer is no. We lost over 3000 lives here in Northern Ireland, and many lives were lost elsewhere, through one or other of the two main religious groupings over here citing "freedom of speech", "human rights", the right to "self determination" or "go back to where you came from" rhetoric. This s**t costs LIVES - real human being lives, families. We can debate all we want on an internet discussion board but our actions beyond this safe environment will shape the future of intercultural relationships throughout the UK and beyond. I have no vested interest in the political leanings of anyone on this board but I think our troubles here in Northern Ireland were best summed up with the statement that we needed to "disarm the mindset". This was a profound statement and, to this day, rings true and effective in the continued relative peace we have over here (I have managed to raise three wonderful young sons who have never heard a bomb go off or a weapon discharged - and for that I am eternally grateful). This may seem consequentially small to many readers of this post but it means the world to me. You do not want to suffer what we suffered. It benefits no one and, as has been the case here in Northern Ireland, after the fact everyone will sit back, draw a deep breath and try to gauge the worth of a war. No one I know thinks that anything good came out of those 30 years. We are now only nearly at a stage of mutual religious respect & tolerance that most countries achieved in the middle ages. To see the potential for the UK / Europe to show that they have learnt nothing from our intolerance for each other is both disappointing and worrying to say the least. Peace out.