[andygrif]

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

So you're in favour of nuclear proliferation then?

No, absolutely not...a point I made by saying:

Originally Posted by andygrif

I would like to see a world that could get on just enough to agree that we would all just forget the fact that nucelar material can be used as weapons. But it isn't going to happen. And how do you stop the erroneous factor that breaks the rule?

I would much rather that no-one had these weapons, but as long as invading countries is on the West's adgenda (and as long as the West is 'allowed' to have nuclear weapons), there will be countries that feel the need to defend themselves or deter invasion.

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

If a country isn't going to use the weapon on it's own, then all that remains is to use it one another country.

Or to use them, as we claim to do in the UK, to deter the threat of agression or invasion from other countries.

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

BTW - by your argument everyone, without regards to their mental health or criminal intent, should be allowed not only to own guns, but to carry them around wherever they go.

I think that analogy only suggests that you haven't really considered what my argument is. I'm not saying that I think that Iran should have nuclear weapons, I don't like the idea more than you do. But you are judging their behavior from the Western point of view, which you've been told is that Iran is the baddie and we're the goodie. But Iran hasn't invaded any countries without permission lately, we have. So doesn't Mr & Mrs 2.4 children in Iran (someone who wishes us no harm at all right now) think that maybe they're not the ones in the wrong here?

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

The man who can carry out the threat hasn't. Doesn't seem that dangerous to me.

Neither has Iran, Syria, North Korea....

Originally Posted by Xaccers

They might, but they're more likely to waste them on another nation's population, don't you think that's reason enough?

And what do you think would happen if they did this? It's ludicrous to suggest that they would use nuclear on their own people. Even the rhetoric spouted off about wiping Isreal off the map is just political flexing, I really don't believe, however much they might like the idea, they would ever do anything about it - namely as it would lead to the wiping off the map of Iran instead - and as I said before, the powerful people have no desire to commit suicide.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Lets see, alleged claim that Bush stated he wanted Al Jazeera removed, with out any context, and unless it's occured while I wasn't looking, no actual evidence that this was a plan to be put into action.

Ditto the statement suggesting the removal of Isreal. The difference is that the 'memo' talking about Al Jazeera has been hurredly covered up so we will not know exactly what happened for a long time. All of which suggests that something rather more sinister than you think.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

Why do you think people like Saddam had a massive nuclear bunker under his palace that he could have survived in if anyone launched nukes agaisnt Bahgdad?

A nice cosy bunker is not much use to a leader if there is no-one left to lead.

Originally Posted by Xaccers

I also know moderate muslims, and I also know non-moderate muslims who don't care if what they've been told is true or right, if it suggests Israel is bad and should be wiped off the map, then they're up for it no matter the consiquences.

Yes, and I am sure that you know that the moderates far outweigh the number of fanatics.

Originally Posted by ScaredWebWarrior

Which [diplomacy] is what has been going on for quite some time now, but Iran seems to be making little effort in that direction.

I agree, and I would much rather Iran would sit round a table a discuss things reasonably. But then if I had the world's largest country constantly making idle threats against me, I might prefer to defend myself first, which gives me a far stronger negotiating position later. I suggest this is exactly what Iran is doing - and is exactly what North Korea did a couple of years back - which wil lead to far greater economic breaks.

And that's what this is all about in the end, isn't it?