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Originally Posted by Shaun
Just because "The Church" has been involved in some good social changes doesn't mean that it will automatically continue. Personally I believe that it's currently doing a lot of harm to the world and its population. Do you honestly think if religion wasnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t involved in the changing of the legislation you mentioned weââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢d still be shoving kids up chimneys? Canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see it myself.
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The morality and legal system of this country is still, even after decades of secularisation, overwhelmingly Christian. You simply can't postulate whether children would still be working up chimneys today if it weren't for Christians because to do so would require you to illustrate an alternative history for our country that would be hugely different to the one we have. Nevertheless, that's a bit of a side issue. Whether or not someone, somewhere would have taken up the cause is irrelevant. These great social challenges were taken up by committed Christians and there is nothing anyone can do to dissemble on that fact.
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This is where we differ, yes everyone has the right to try and influence society, however I don't believe that those changes should be sent down from "on high", dictated either from a Pope or a book. If people have genuine concerns about something then thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s great let them lobby on the issue. However just to state that their religion condones it then its wrong to allow that to affect others lives.
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Forgive me, but I find your distinction between my beliefs (from 'on high' or 'out of a book') and yours ('genuine concerns') to be entirely artificial and not a little patronizing. When you accord your own moral viewpoint a greater validity than mine, simply because you hold the origin of that viewpoint in higher regard than you do the origin of mine, are you not simply doing exactly what you accuse Christians of doing?
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Thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s not my point Chris and you know it. My point is that I personally feel it unacceptable that religious views are being forced on people who don't have the same convictions. In lobbying to keep the law the same (which I assume from your posts you want) then you are imposing your (religious) beliefs on me any many others, not just on this issue but also on others.
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I know you're not deliberately setting out to exclude one group from political expression but I still say that inadvertantly that is exactly what you are pushing for. Everybody has a worldview. For some, that view is predicated on a belief in a deity and a sense of responsibility towards that deity. For others, their view arises out of the conviction that there is no higher authority. You have expressly stated that you believe morality derived from a belief in higher authority is not valid, or at least less valid, than morality that is derived in the absence of any regard for higher authority. The result is that you ascribe yourself the right to campaign for society to be structured in a way that best suits you, while seeking to deny others that same right simply because you disagree with the basis of their belief. That, whether you mean it to be or not, is a pretty good definition of intolerance.
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Like I have said before, I have no religious convictions and believe religion (in all its guises) to be a fraud, why should something I believe to be fundamentally wrong stop me from doing something?
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Let me turn that on its head. I believe passionately that this universe has a divine creator God to whom we are all morally responsible and I believe that those who reject religion to be in denial. Why should something (namely, an atheistic worldview) I believe to be fundamentally wrong, stop me from doing something?