[Shaun]

Originally Posted by Chris T

You just snippetty-snipped two examples I gave of how Christians lobbied and pushed for changes to society - an end to slavery and universal education.

Just because "The Church" has been involved in some good social changes doesn't mean that it will automatically continue. Personally I believe that it's currently doing a lot of harm to the world and its population. Do you honestly think if religion wasnââ‚ ¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢t involved in the changing of the legislation you mentioned weââ‚ ¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢d still be shoving kids up chimneys? Canââ‚Âà ‚¬ÃƒÂ¢Ã¢â‚¬Å¾Ã‚¢t see it myself.

I believe that in a democracy, every person has a right to try to influence the society they live in. That includes religious people who have a religious take on how their society should operate.

This is where we differ, yes everyone has the right to try and influence society, however I don't believe that those changes should be sent down from "on high", dictated either from a Pope or a book. If people have genuine concerns about something then thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s great let them lobby on the issue. However just to state that their religion condones it then its wrong to allow that to affect others lives.

So yes, I believe I have the right, through the ballot box and through direct lobbying of those with the power to effect change, to attempt to influence society in the direction I wish to see it move. Of course, you also have that right. It is not something that is the special preserve of 'religious people'.

Thatâ₠¬Ã¢â€žÂ¢s not my point Chris and you know it. My point is that I personally feel it unacceptable that religious views are being forced on people who don't have the same convictions. In lobbying to keep the law the same (which I assume from your posts you want) then you are imposing your (religious) beliefs on me any many others, not just on this issue but also on others.

Like I have said before, I have no religious convictions and believe religion (in all its guises) to be a fraud, why should something I believe to be fundamentally wrong stop me from doing something?