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Originally Posted by Xaccers
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Originally Posted by Graham
Which countries? The former Soviet Union? The old Eastern Europe? Communist China?
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Well, assuming you've done some research into ID cards rather than just reading the anti literature that has been put out in this country, then I'm sure you'll be able to name at least two democracies with ID cards.
Or have you not actually done much research into that?
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Xaccers, in case you hadn't noticed *NONE* of the democracies that *DO* have ID cards have *ANYTHING* like the scheme that this government wants to implement, so your implied argument has no validity.
But don't worry, we won't hold it against you...
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And again I ask: Exactly what new information will the database hold that will enable all these abuses which isn't already held by the government?
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The point is that there is no *ONE* number that will give someone access to *ALL* that information in one single "transaction".
In the USA if you can get hold of someone's Social Security Number it is possible to gain access to a huge swathe of details about their dealings which actually makes ID theft in America *easier*!!!
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Originally Posted by Graham
Go and search the old threads where you will find the difference between having a licence to drive (something you *choose* to have) and having a "licence to walk down the street" (something which the government wants to *compel* you to have).
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Or you could explain why something which just helps give evidence to show that the information you are giving is true is some how a "right to exist card" rather than dodging the question.
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Well on the subject of dodging, that *wasn't* the question you originally asked that generated that response, but never mind.
But as to your subsequent question (which has, again, been answered in previous threads) imagine you're a member of an ethnic minority who happens to be walking down the street in a "rich white area", or maybe you're parking a van near an airport with a few friends.
Mr Institutionally Racist Policeman (yes, there *are* some, see the Macpherson report) comes up and thinks "hello, hello, hello, they look suspiciously black/ Muslim, Who are you? What are you doing? Let's see some ID sonny. Oh dear, no ID, you can't prove your answers are true, you're going to have to come down to the Police Station until we can demonstrate that you have the right to be here".
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You appear to be one of the people who needs convincing as per your next statement:
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You're damn right I need convincing that spending at least three billion pounds on a scheme like this is going to be worthwhile!!
Anyone who doesn't is being incredibly naiive.
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So, how about giving some valid arguments against a well thought out and properly implimented ID card system? Or are you unable to think of any?
After all, does there have to be arguments againt it? Would such an ID scheme work?
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What on *EARTH* is the point of discussing hypothetical situations when there is *ALREADY* a plan on the table which the government wants to force through and impose on us whether we like it or not???
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Originally Posted by Graham
people in this country have fought *WARS* to protect!!
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While people at home quite happily carried ID cards!
Oh the irony! 
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Irony indeed, Xaccers, but not quite for the reasons you think!
In case you hadn't noticed there *ISN'T* a war on at the moment, *DESPITE* what the government may claim!!
Remember that the last ID card scheme that this country had was discontinued after a Judge ruled that there was *NO NEED* to have such a system in place now that the war was over!!
So why should we, once again, be happy to carry ID cards??
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Again, what rights will be lost?
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Are you actually *READING* what I am writing, Xaccers?
How many times do I have to repeat "THE RIGHT TO GO ABOUT YOUR LAWFUL BUSINESS WITHOUT LET OR HINDERENCE"???
What about "PRESUMED INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY"?
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You currently don't have the right to give false information to goverment officials
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Straw man. I never said anything about this.
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You currently don't have the right to refuse to give most of the information the goverment is putting in the database
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Another straw man.
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You currently have the right by your existence to be able to walk down a public right of way, that didn't change during WW2, it ain't changing with this proposal
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Wrong, as I mentioned above. And before you say "it won't happen, they won't be allowed to do that" I suggest, as, once again, I have mentioned many a time in previous threads, you look at the situation in France where Police aren't allowed to stop minorities (mostly Algerians) just to check their ID, yet, somehow they *still* do this.
Or, at least, none that you're willing to acknowledge which is an entirely different matter.