[punky]

Originally Posted by Graham

Oh, so we've been abusing these rights *already*!

So let's ignore the fact it's a breach of the Common Law and the EU convention on Human Rights (which this country is signatory to).

We've already set a precedent, so it's all right, then...

No, and it is nothing of the sort. Since God knows when, the government has been allowed to hold people under suspicion. That is what remand is for. That is why they have cells in police stations, so suspects can be held during questioning. At no time is the criminal judged to be guilty, but during that time is to be held. Do we bail every single suspect because remand is against their human rights? Do we go a step further and ask everyone nicely, after arrest, to hang around outside the station until we call them for questioing?

So it's ok to repress and harass a minority but *not* a majority?

At what point does it become unacceptable?

Police need more than ethnicity to suspect someone of a crime.

But then you went on to say "So if we agree that inside informants (Like Ramrod said) is extremely unlikely,"

Except that, as I said in the next paragraph:

So... Ramrod says informants are few and far between, and then you go on to say that they'll be less? Then how can you rely on them as our sole method of intelligence gathering?

Please quote me something where I said "all intelligence" because I'm certain that I did not, nor would, say anything like that!

I agree, for instance, as I said in a debate not long ago with the concept of using Phone Tap evidence in a court of law *provided* that the tap was done based on reasonable suspicion rather than just as a "fishing trip".

Frankly I'm utterly astonished that Charles Clarke *doesn't* want this to happen and I can't for the life of me understand *why* unless there's some ulterior motive or reason that hasn't been revealed to us.

But how do you know who to wiretap without intelligence telling you who could be suspects? It is the chicken-and-egg story. And how come you have changed your mind about their right to privacy all of a sudden?