[zovat]

Originally Posted by Sarah_77

I for one feel that these images should not be visable to the public. All investigations should be done behind closed doors.

Do you not think that these images incite even more hatred from the muslim countries ?

What these soldiers allegedly did was despicable. If they are found guilty they deserve everything they get.

Ok, I have tried to stay out of this one, as most regular posters here know, I served out in kuwait/Iraq in 2003, and saw the state of the country both before and after. (and I have a number of friends who are either there, or just got back.just going)

As such I have very strong opinions on this subject, so I hope I don't offend anyone with my replies.

Originally Posted by Earl Of Bronze

But if they where given an order to ''go hard'' on looters by their O.C. then I hope the Rupert in question gets what he deserves, and not just the ''Other Ranks''.

Too right, and he is apparantly giving evidence today.

If he gave the order, and it was an illegal order, then he should be punished.

However, there is an element of culpability on the soldiers - they have the right to refuse to carry out an illegal order (and I know that people rarely do for fear of reprisals/career wrecking).

Originally Posted by gogogo

Whatever happened to the belief in innocent until proven guilty?

Again - spot on. The evidence presented by these pictures should not have been released until the court martial has been completed, and then only if it would serve the public interest.

IF these soldiers are found guilty, they will end up in colchester for a very long time, and then back in civvie street with a dishonorable discharge, and their lives will be ruined - and they will deserve that. If, however they are found not guilty, then they will still have the stigma attached to them because the public have already decided that they are guilty, based on a few photos.

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why Iraq is now a net *importer* of fuel,

because the insurgents keep blowing up the transport pipes !!!!

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why the insurgency is growing despite assurances that flattening Fallujah would put an end to it,

because the assurance was crap - you might as well say we could have solved the IRA problem by destroying belfast.

Originally Posted by BBKing

For that matter, why is flattening cities the size of Leicester with overwhelming firepower the act of a civilised power putting an end to tyranny,

I don't agree with the flattening of a city, but then if the city is held by people who are killing more Iraqis than the war did - would you rather let them sit there and gather arms for the next strike......

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why it's more dangerous to live in Iraq now than under Saddam,

care to back that up ?

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why, 11 days before the election, fewer than half the population live in areas safe enough to vote,

Again, who is causing the instability, who is blowing up the IRAQI forces ?

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why having an undemocratically elected Shia-dominated Parliament is going to have a cat in hell's chance of appeasing an irate Sunni minority who are well armed and well motivated and have had the Americans tied up nicely for months,

so we bow to terrorists (sorry but blowing up your own civilians makes you a terrorist, and a large amount of the people involved are either foreign (non-Iraqi) or Saddams old cronies who are trying to get their old power back)

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why curfews and border closures are deemed a requirement for holding a 'democratic' election,
Why people can't get sufficient information on the candidates because of insecurity, lack of fuel, lack of electricity and dangerous streets,
Why we're having to send *more* troops in nearly two years after the invasion,
Why 20 people a day are being murdered in *Baghdad* in terrorist acts,

Again - who is causing this - are we blowing up our own people - no !

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why foreign journalists covering the election are going to have to avoid travelling around on land for fear of kidnap or assassination, even between the airport and the centre of US power,
Why the Iraqi security services are completely incapable of providing any security at all (despite GWB's assurances during the election, which turned out to be more downright lies)

always the same basic point, Iraq is not secure - we know this....

would you rather we pull out and let a bloody (in the sense of the red stuff) civil war take place, and have the country run by whichever group has the biggest guns, and go back to the days under Saddam ?

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why there were no al-Qaeda terrorists in Iraq before the invasion, but now they and their followers are powerful and influential enough to stop the election being in any way free, fair or representative.

we have already established that the reasons given for the invasion were based on (at best) suspect intelligence.

Originally Posted by BBKing

Why companies whose employees were involved in Abu Graibh are being rewarded with more contracts

so just because you built a prison that someone abused prisoners in, that makes you a bad person ?

Originally Posted by BBKing

And the big one - how is the UK in any way, shape or form better off financially, more secure or better thought of in the world after this fiasco?

Interesting priorities....
financially - no we are no better off, but we did not go to war for money.....
security - probably no better or worse - you forget that although Saddam had no WMD (that we found) we know he had the capability - how - we taught him, and supplied the basic materials (albeit many years ago). Just because a killer does not have a gun in his hand, it does not mean he cannot make/get a gun later...
Reputation - The british army is one of the (if not the) best in the world, we train the armies of more countries than you could know.
We have been seen in the international community as Americas lapdog, but only by those who either supported Saddam actively (france, etc) or those who could not decide what to do.
Even those that disagreed with the invasion stated that Britain did what it had to do based on the information it had.

Originally Posted by damien

But i think iraq, in a few years, will be in a remarkible position compared to before.

I really believe this, and hope to be proved right..

When we went in, unless you were a Saddam Crony (or relative) you had very basic ameneties - Electricity (free IIRC) and a roof - most outying villages had no running water, and had to travel miles to get drinking water.

If we can improve the life of these people then we have done something good..
If we fail to do this, then we have wasted a lot of lives.