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Originally Posted by Chris
Disagree.
The basis of sex is biology (i.e. you always were, always are, and always will be either male or female, and the terms man and woman always and only mean adult human male and adult human female respectively).
Hormone treatment and cosmetic surgery may reduce or modify explicitly male or female behaviours and mask appearances, but serious studies have shown that in sports, especially, men retain biological advantages regardless of what medical treatment they have had. Reducing testosterone isn’t enough. Creating cosmetic sex organs does not reduce bone density.
Many women campaigning in this area also refer to what they call ‘male pattern aggression’; i.e. while the basis of sex is biological, a lifetime of being brought up according to natal sex inculcates patterns of behaviour which cannot easily be un-learned (and which medical treatment does not undo) and which are triggering especially for women who have suffered male violence.
Women seeking man-free spaces, especially where they are vulnerable and/or in intimate settings (medical treatment, toilets, rape crisis services, prisons) should not have to be concerned with whether the individual who enters that space alongside them is a man or not. Nor should they be forced to rely on an administrative process that creates a legal fiction (i.e. in the UK context, the Gender Recognition Act, which is increasingly being shown to be at odds with the rights and protections of the Equality Act). There simply is no way to draw a line between what is an acceptable intrusion by a man into an intimate female space and what is an unacceptable one. No man (i.e. adult human male) should ever be permitted to believe he may use such a space.
It’s worth noting that while this all applies equally to women who pretend to be men (no matter how sincerely they might believe it), the problems are asymmetric. A woman in a men’s toilet is, statistically, at risk. A man in a woman’s toilet is, statistically, a source of risk.
I could go on, and probably will. Meantime if you want to acquaint yourself with some of the objections from an avowedly atheistic point of view you could have a look at what Prof. Richard Dawkins has to say in this area. And I never thought I’d recommend Dawkins to anyone.
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I have already addressed the sport issue. I do not feel we diverge on this.
You are focusing on the pre-transition trans individuals which is the difficult one to address. Difficult but not impossible. You start addressing the transitioned individuals and then veer off into sports where the win is easy. You then apply an argument that assumes "men will always be men" and so can still be violent event though they have transitioned to women. I would argue this is a niche position especially saying that women are "triggered" by the prospect of a "man" in their company. You would probably find that you would have higher levels of violence from women on women.
The device used here is to say: "well, they were men, so they must always have the potential to be violent". I'm sorry, this is weak argument when applied on a macro scale and show no compassion for those who genuinely believe they were born into the wrong gender. We, as a society, should be able to accommodate those who are on this journey and, at the same time, ensure that women's rights, as most understand them, are protected. This is the definition of a civilised society.
As Paul mentioned, we are off topic so will say no more on this.