[ianch99]

Originally Posted by Pierre

Well they haven’t had Crimea for a decade. They, and the West, gave it up with so much as a whimper.

Along with Donetsk and Luhansk, so they are already effectively part of Russia’s hand. What would now be up for negotiation would be the territory Russia has occupied and held since the invasion of 2022.

What territory they cede would be up to them, as part of any negotiation

Ukraine did not have the ability to stop Russia in Crimea. It is the West that is culpable here. Remember that the Budapest Memorandum signed in 1994 stated that:

According to the three memoranda, Russia, the US and the UK confirmed their recognition of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Ukraine becoming parties to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons and effectively removing all Soviet nuclear weapons from their soil, and that they agreed to the following:

- Respect the signatory's independence and sovereignty in the existing borders (in accordance with the principles of the CSCE Final Act).

- Refrain from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of the signatories to the memorandum, and undertake that none of their weapons will ever be used against these countries, except in cases of self-defense or otherwise in accordance with the Charter of the United Nations.

- Refrain from economic coercion designed to subordinate to their own interest the exercise by Ukraine, the Republic of Belarus and Kazakhstan of the rights inherent in its sovereignty and thus to secure advantages of any kind.

- Seek immediate Security Council action to provide assistance to the signatory if they "should become a victim of an act of aggression or an object of a threat of aggression in which nuclear weapons are used".

- Not to use nuclear weapons against any non - nuclear-weapon state party to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons, except in the case of an attack on themselves, their territories or dependent territories, their armed forces, or their allies, by such a state in association or alliance with a nuclear weapon state.

- Consult with one another if questions arise regarding those commitments.

The West sold Ukraine down the river and the appeasement in 2014 dialled in the invasion in 2022.

Remember also that the referendum of 1991: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_U...nce_referendum had massive majorities for independence even in Donetsk and Luhansk, disproving the narrative that the eastern Oblasts want to be part of Russia.

It basically comes down to appeasement: some think that Putin should be given the land he took by force and some think that aggression cannot be rewarded. History tells us that appeasement is a dangerous gamble ....

---------- Post added at 10:47 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------

Originally Posted by jfman

This was not said in the post you quoted.



Nor this in the post quoted:



You may be overdosing on the pro-Ukranian kool aid and believe recapturing Crimea is achievable, and happy to commit the Ukrainian male population to die for it.

However somewhere else (in the real world) there has to be consideration of at least the possibility for some that dying in an ill equipped, never ending and futile war isn’t any more desirable for the average Ukrainians than it is for you from the luxury of your keyboard. How they would extract themselves from that is a good question. I refer again to Pierre’s post that you have not addressed while you persist in misrepresenting mine.

Under Zelensky, they’d need to kill him first.

---------- Post added at 10:27 ---------- Previous post was at 10:22 ----------



For the purposes of this post only, I’ll concede the point and say it still doesn’t warrant sacrificing every Ukrainian man of fighting age in a war it is both losing and being inadequately resourced by its supposed allies.

What steps Ukraine, NATO, or anyone else could take between now and then to better resource the front line more than ritual human sacrifice would be welcome.

More ranting about unwilling Ukrainians being killed yet no comment on what they should do differently.