[roughbeast]

Originally Posted by Sephiroth

To my mind, not in the least 'mindless'. It's highly likely and the evidence is there with Russia having sent 'refugees' through Finland and Belarus likewise into Poland. Hostile states operating as Sunak states is exactly part of what's happening.


What 'ways' would those be? That's pie in the sky for a whole host of reasons. There are c. 750+ millions Africans who might find the need to leave Africa. If anything like that happens, even a million, they'll try to fight their way inti Europe because it won't be allowed. There's no 'way' of finding a 'way' for 'folk to stay in their own countries'. How's that to be done.

You mention 'Islamophobes'. What is phobic about fearing Islam when it's name is used to mass-murder people in New York, Paris, London, Sderot and so on? Who are we letting into this country on the boats? How can we police the 300,000 if they get violent as one day they might?

On your final point about British values prevailing, when we're overrun by a different culture, then poof - British values are gone.

1. Citing a known enemy, Russia, as a diverter of refugees towards Europe, when most refugees are coming of their own volition through Europe's Mediterranean and Turkish border, is a distraction - a massive red-herring. Please understand that hundreds of thousands of fleeing refugees is not a conspiracy.


2. I don't think you really want to open a discussion on your hate for Muslims and Islam again do we? You ran out of arguments last time and will run out of them again.

3. The effects of climate change in countries where refugees are coming from, include constant drought and desertification of once productive lands. e.g. in sub-Saharan Africa, Afghanistan; excessive heat, which has already killed hundreds of thousands; and increased storm surges flooding agricultural land e.g. Mekong Delta, Ganges Delta. These effects will increase and begin to include more low-lying coastal areas as general sea-level rises.

Some of these physical effects of climate change have destabilised existing regimes or democracies. For example, the event that triggered the Syrian War was a peaceful march, including whole families, against Assad's mishandling of the unprecedented drought in the region. Instead of seeking to meet their demands he had them mown down with live gunfire. Apart from the unstable near East, currently there are 15 ongoing wars in Africa, most in regions stressed by climate change. These all create refugees too.

We can help this situation in a number of ways.

a) Long-term all countries must meet their obligations regarding 1.5C and carbon zero by the dates each country pledged. Without that there is no hope.

b) Developed and wealthy countries must commit and ring-fence trillions in dollars/pounds to climate change mitigation schemes, including drilling for fresh water; continuing the growth of the great tree belts such as the one growing in the sub-Sahara (These increase local rainfall and, store carbon and retain water in the soil); education regarding methods for conserving water and growing drought resistant crops; building of sea and river defences; reforestation of water catchment areas to slow down flood water and reduce erosion of good soil.

c) Maintain properly targeted overseas aid aimed particularly at education of boys and girls, clean water supply and treatment, medical facilities and large scale green technology initiatives. Remember, overseas aid is also an investment in future markets, so not a penny is wasted if properly targeted and controlled.

4. You, and people who think like you, have debunked key British values long ago.

What are these British values? I draw your attention to the last two particularly, although given the behaviour of fascist shock troops attacking police at the Cenotaph recently, I am concerned about the rule of law too.

* democracy.
* the rule of law.
* individual liberty.
* mutual respect.
* tolerance of those of different faiths and beliefs.

---------- Post added at 13:41 ---------- Previous post was at 13:06 ----------

Originally Posted by Chris

Given that there’s video evidence of this occurring on the Poland/Belarus border and Wagner, with its extensive influence operations across the African continent, is now officially admitted to have been an arms-length operation of the Russian government, you perhaps want to be a bit more careful about calling something a ‘mindless conspiracy theory’ just because it’s on the lips of someone whose politics you dislike.

Disagree by all means, but the charge is serious and dismissing it does rather require engagement with, and refutation of, the evidence.

Nothing stopped Sunak mentioning Russia, Belarus or Wagner operations in Africa, but he didn't. He knows that there is no evidence and they aren't his intended target. His target is deliberately nefarious because he is gaslighting his potential electorate and assumes that they are mindless sponges for that kind of rhetoric and conspiracy theory. He wants the blame to fall in Islamic countries and on an Islamic conspiracy. There's votes in that, not on blaming Russia.

The Italians have been more specific trying to blame the migration effects of climate change on Russia. They ignore the fact that drought, hunger, starvation and 15 African wars are the real main cause.

Italy’s Defense Ministry declined to share evidence showing the Wagner Group’s involvement. I wonder why? Prigozhin said that Wagner has “no idea what’s going on with the migrant crisis,” and that Italy’s defense minister should face his own problems instead of “looking around.”

Migration and security experts, while not privy to Italy’s intelligence, say that Wagner is surely not the primary cause of the surge. Though mercenaries do operate in Libya — a major jumping-off point for migrants — their troops are primarily headquartered at bases far from the shore.

“Wagner has indeed become this new boogeyman,” said Wolfram Lacher, a researcher on Libya at the German Institute for International and Security Affairs.

There’s another reason to discount the Wagner explanation: The spike of crossings is being fed, primarily, by a country where Wagner does not operate. While most boats used to depart from Libya, the slight majority now take off from neighboring Tunisia, a result of the country’s deteriorating political situation.