[Sephiroth]

Originally Posted by 1andrew1

JFMan explained how and ianch99 said there should be fewer than 500 civilian casualties not the c20k that we're sadly fast approaching. No one's going to give you a military blue print!

Time to move on and answer those timely questions of Sky's:

• Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible?
• How will America now respond to this?
• Israelis and Palestinians can't share power in a single state. So where now?

You're nearly always worth engaging.

I'm dealing here with Ian's constant swerving of a proper answer. I spent a lot of time last night (I'm in Australia atm), reading each one of Ian's posts in this thread - trawling through 75+ pages. He has made quite clear how disgusting Hamas is and agrees that they need to be removed.

But then he, and jfman (a different case, though), can only criticise Israel for the collateral damage that is occurring and cannot answer the question as to how else Israel should be dealing with Hamas. Considered, surgical measures is the best he can offer.

Israel is dealing with a murderous terrorist organisation that has taken things too far. The matter of response is indeed binary, which is why Ian can only come up with not this way responses.

Hamas invades Israel and brutally murder120 Israelis taking 200+ hostage.
Israel retaliates militarily (binary choice).

His answer is Considered, surgical measures; what does that mean? This is armchair nonsense.

Hamas operates from tunnels: Israel has to find the tunnels, get to the tunnels, destroy the tunnels and Hamas within. Where are the tunnels? Under civilian infrastructure.

So we come to [I]surgical[I]: This is probably Ian's code for not bombing the crap out of the civilian infrastructure. What is Ian expecting Measured: House to house fighting will cost Israeli lives on an unacceptable scale in Israel's eyes and Israel doesn't really know where tunnels are. So to considered: Israel tells civilians to leave the North and head South. Which brings us back to surgical: Send the ground forces in to the levelled zone and find the tunnels.

You don't have to be a military strategist to come up with that high level view. It's binary: if Hamas is to be destroyed, they have to be found.

• Is the military operation in Gaza rendering a Palestinian state politically and geographically impossible? I'm glad you say 'politically' because the signs are not good. Unless Likud ditches the Ultras and reaches a political deal with the opposition, the 2-state project cannot be resurrected.
  I don't think the Gaza business is making a Palestinian state impossible; it's the parliamentary makeup in Israel combined with deliberate Israeli settlements being created in West Bank that currently makes Palestine impossible.
  
• How will America now respond to this? Who knows?
  They virtue signal with one mouth and .do the opposite wit their hands because the Jewish vote matters in an elections.
  
• Israelis and Palestinians can't share power in a single state. So where now? Good question. I think Israel has real problems stacked up in front of it, not least kindling of additional terrorism from the West Bank, stoked up by Iran. Again, it's a binary matter (imo); the two sides are now even more incompatible than before.

Real shit is going to happen inside Israel and its West Bank settlements, so I forecast unless there is governmental change and all Israeli settlers in West Bank are pulled out. And the settlers are well armed.


---------- Post added at 19:33 ---------- Previous post was at 19:28 ----------

Originally Posted by ianch99

Seph is basically saying that the ongoing killing & destruction in Gaza is sanctioned by him because he, personally, cannot comprehend any other solution. I am not sure I can help him with this.

To try and answer your questions:

1/ It is getting there. The killing & ethnic cleaning that is starting to emerge in Northern Gaza will not only deliver Hamas, or who ever replaces them, the next cadre of willing jihadists but it will move previously centrist Arabs in the region more towards the extremist Hamas position. This will destabilise the region further. An old testament saying seem apt here: "as you sow, so shall you reap". Israel is baking in more turmoil.

2/ The US is slowly moving towards a ceasefire position but is not there yet it seems. Don't forget the Jewish lobby in the US is a very powerful one and is ignored at your peril if you wish re-election.

3/ You say they can't share power and I suspect you are right. However, people point to the example of South Africa where an apartheid system was dismantled and a single democratic state emerged. Of course the elephant in this room is religion which fuels hatred on both sides. As history tells you, religious authority claimed over lands is tricky to reconcile.

Wow. Something upon which Ian and I agree.

His first sentence is utter tripe. I sanction nothing (as I've said before). Instead, I rationalise it all out and have reached the conclusion (an unanswered question): what else should have Israel done in response to the Hamas attack.