[jfman]

Originally Posted by Chris

As if to illustrate my point, you appeal to the Minsk Protocol, which Ukraine signed with a gun to its head as a direct result of violent insurrection fomented in the Donbas by the Russian state. The extent to which there ever was any great desire for self determination in Luhansk and Donetsk cannot now ever really be known, given the years of Russian propaganda, violent repression and genocide likely to have been perpetrated there (c.f. Bucha, Lyman etc - Russian state sponsored atrocities our faulty Western lenses were never supposed to see). All we really have to go on is the convincing ‘yes’ vote those areas returned in the referendum held prior to the establishment of the Ukrainian state.

Which begs the question why Ukraine signed at all knowing it would be saving up a conflict for later if they didn’t adhere to their side.

My post is there for all users to see. I’m pretty sure the balanced view of what it says differs significantly from your summary here so I don’t feel any pressing need to re-state any of it.

As to your own obsessions, well you’ve been using this conflict as a handy means to signal your hatred of American foreign policy since day one. You castigate other posters for their lenses while making no obvious attempt to see any of this from a Ukrainian point of view. Just 2 days ago you dropped a link to a Guardian article in the thread with a one-line comment furthering your obsession with the idea that Americans are lurking in the background pulling strings and using Ukraine for their own ends.

I think that’s a fanciful interpretation of reality, Chris. Anyone can read that article for themselves and consider whether America is pulling strings or not. Sure, I get that the plucky underdog is a good narrative for the propaganda machine but the reality remains Ukraine wouldn’t be in this conflict without American backing, just as it’ll be out of it without it.

Just for once it would be genuinely heartening to hear you set your opinions in the context of Ukrainian civilians suffering kidnap, torture, rape and forced deportation in the occupied areas. Or, if that’s a bit too real for you, how about simply the security concerns of Eastern European states who fear that if a line isn’t drawn now, they’ll be next on Putin’s list.

I’ve been clear about the horrors of war - hence my interest in (and discussion of) a meaningful (and quick) solution rather than perpetual conflict, or the western keyboard warriors wet dream of regime change in Moscow. There won’t be any less rape or murder if this drags on for a decade.

I don’t think the rest of Eastern Europe have much to fear given how little Russia have achieved in almost a year. Indeed you yourself opined the other day that Russia couldn’t even protect itself if required.