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Originally Posted by jfman
Who said anything about violent insurgencies? Once again it’s a straw man. The people in these areas have a right to the principle peaceful self determination - in accordance with the Minsk protocol - or they do not.
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As if to illustrate my point, you appeal to the Minsk Protocol, which Ukraine signed with a gun to its head as a direct result of violent insurrection fomented in the Donbas by the Russian state. The extent to which there ever was any great desire for self determination in Luhansk and Donetsk cannot now ever really be known, given the years of Russian propaganda, violent repression and genocide likely to have been perpetrated there (c.f. Bucha, Lyman etc - Russian state sponsored atrocities our faulty Western lenses were never supposed to see). All we really have to go on is the convincing ‘yes’ vote those areas returned in the referendum held prior to the establishment of the Ukrainian state.
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I don’t see much to laugh about to be honest. I’m entertained though that this is my obsession, considering the extremely lengthy post you made the other day about how you’ve been reading up on this since February and are convinced Russia is on the brink of collapse. You seem far more obsessed and entrenched in your own echo chamber than I am.
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My post is there for all users to see. I’m pretty sure the balanced view of what it says differs significantly from your summary here so I don’t feel any pressing need to re-state any of it.
As to your own obsessions, well you’ve been using this conflict as a handy means to signal your hatred of American foreign policy since day one. You castigate other posters for their lenses while making no obvious attempt to see any of this from a Ukrainian point of view. Just 2 days ago you dropped a link to a Guardian article in the thread with a one-line comment furthering your obsession with the idea that Americans are lurking in the background pulling strings and using Ukraine for their own ends.
Just for once it would be genuinely heartening to hear you set your opinions in the context of Ukrainian civilians suffering kidnap, torture, rape and forced deportation in the occupied areas. Or, if that’s a bit too real for you, how about simply the security concerns of Eastern European states who fear that if a line isn’t drawn now, they’ll be next on Putin’s list.